Am I "overtrained"?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
dsoucek
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Am I "overtrained"?

Post by dsoucek » May 16th, 2019, 2:09 pm

Hi Folks,
Beginning in November of ’18 through early March this year I did Pete Plan type training, capping off with a 2K time trial, in which I PR’d. During that time I would frequently do 10K rows at 20 spm with heart rate capped at upper limit of UT2, and would usually average around 2:06 to 2:08 per 500m without much trouble. During that time I averaged about 55K per week. After the 2K TT, I continued with relatively high weekly meters, cutting out the short hard intervals, but adding longer intervals on short rest and then “tempo” rows for 10K. I believe I might have gotten myself over-trained because my last few UT2 efforts, including on both sides of a week completely off of any exercise, have been more like 2:12 to 2:14 pace. So my question is, does this sound like typical overtraining and something that will come about every now and then? Could this have happened because my aerobic base is not very good, and now just spending time on the erg going slow for a couple of months is what I need? Thanks for any thoughts or advice.
Dave
48 yo, M, 5'9", 179 lbs
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johnlvs2run
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by johnlvs2run » May 16th, 2019, 2:24 pm

dsoucek wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 2:09 pm
After the 2K TT, I continued with relatively high weekly meters, cutting out the short hard intervals,
but adding longer intervals on short rest and then “tempo” rows for 10K.
You need to keep doing the shorter hard reps, and have longer recoveries for the longer ones,
so you can likewise do them faster and harder. Thus you're probably under trained, not overly trained.
73 5'8 155
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skierg: 100m 87.4 / 500m 86.2 / 1k 85.9 / 2k 89.4 / 5k 87.6 / 10k 89.4 / 60' 92.0 / 21k 93.6
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Dangerscouse
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by Dangerscouse » May 16th, 2019, 3:14 pm

We all have cycles of form so you might just be in a dip. I have never figured out why it happens but it seems to be the same for most of us.

Having a week off will help recharge the batteries but they estimate some people can lose up to circa 10% of their fitness when they do that.

I wouldn't over think it, just mix up the longer slower sessions with some shorter tougher sessions and pace will come back soon enough.
45 HWT; 6' 4"; Liverpool 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,356m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you Row"

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dsoucek
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by dsoucek » May 16th, 2019, 3:27 pm

huh. I hadn't considered the "under-trained" option, but now that you mention it makes sense.
thanks, guys. I'll add some short hard stuff back.
so much to learn about training.
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by jamesg » May 17th, 2019, 12:49 am

Your pbs look very high standard so almost impossible to maintain continuously. So if not overtrained you certainly were very well trained. Well done.

If a reasonable training cycle takes six or twelve months, no doubt you'll be back there or close at the end of that cycle. In the meantime a rest can do no harm.

The Interactives were progressive plans for 2k racing. A level 4, 26 week 5 day schedule starts like this:

1 TEST -- 36'UT2 -- 2x15'UT1 -- 45'UT2 -- 3x12'UT1
2 3x11'UT1 -- 48'UT2 -- 2x20'UT1 -- 54'UT2 -- 3x15'UT1
3 3x14'UT1 -- 57'UT2 -- 4x12'UT1 -- 60'UT2 -- 5x10'UT1

4 10'AT -- 2x12'UT1 -- 12'AT -- 2x15'UT1 -- 2x8'AT
5 2x9'AT -- 3x13'UT1 -- 2x8'AT -- 4x11'UT1 -- 2x10'AT
6 2x10'AT -- 4x12'UT1 -- 2x10'AT -- 5x10'UT1 -- 3x7'AT

Which looks close to what you planned.

The Interactives contained guidelines for governing training bands with either HR or %s of 2k test Watts.
78y, 188cm, 87kg, last seen MHR 163. 2k (24 May 19) 8.46.6@22

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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by max_ratcliffe » May 17th, 2019, 1:39 am

dsoucek wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 2:09 pm


because my last few UT2 efforts, including on both sides of a week completely off of any exercise, have been more like 2:12 to 2:14 pace. So my
The exact same thing has happened to me (although your PBs are in a different league to mine). I was doing the BPP, but stopped the intervals so I could do the March challenge (25 days of 10k/day in the month). After that, I was a bit lazy, and struggled to pace the intervals, so I stayed doing long slow ss rows.

I did a 5k on Wednesday at 2.08 (PB is 2.04), expecting to find it reasonably easy. I really struggled, and it was all a bit dispiriting really. So, back to a bit of both for me from here. Will do a modified Pete 5k. I can't train 6 days a week, but will do 4, so the lite version plus one long ss per week.

I doubt many amateur athletes are ever genuinely overtrained. Unless you're really putting in the miles (or going out on the lash every night!), it's pretty unlikely. That said, when I first started doing the March challenge, I was trying to do it all as fast as possible, and just add the extra volume onto the BPP intervals to get to 10k each day. My pulse was a bit high some mornings when I woke up, so perhaps i was on the edge of overtraining myself. i'm not 22 any more!
48yo, 87kg, Pom living in Adelaide. PBs: 2k=7:34.7; 5k=19:44; 10k=42:13; 60min=14112m; HM=1:31.44

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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by Andrew Shuck » May 17th, 2019, 3:26 am

@ Max, i loosely followed the pp for 22 weeks last season 2019 resulted in P.b.'s in 2k, 5k, 10k, HM, and a M. I stopped following the pp for 5 months as i felt physically and mentally exhausted.(Not just from rowing, busy at work and had building work going on at home for 3 months) However i continued to do UT2 work of 10k's 4-5 x a week.Including lifting weights.(Vince Gironda 8x8 routine)
The last 3 weeks i been loosely following PP again. As expected fitness/ speed dropped off, but i am making good progress. This season i did a 10k on 3rd May 36:33.1, my 2019 10k pb was 35:48.6 so not a massive difference in time.
I plan to do a 5k tomorrow.
Have a rest for a few days, take some time off PP, it wasn't designed to be followed week in/ out. Ease up, your body and mind will thank you.
All the very best Andrew. :D
Male 52 yrs. 6'1"All time P.b's achieved in 2019/20....500m 1:22.91k 3:00.2 2k 6:19.25k 16:50.5 10k 34:57.3 1/2 M 1:17:37.3 60min 16557 full M 2:45:52.7 2018 100k 7:37.27.1
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by hjs » May 17th, 2019, 3:31 am

dsoucek wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 2:09 pm
Hi Folks,
Beginning in November of ’18 through early March this year I did Pete Plan type training, capping off with a 2K time trial, in which I PR’d. During that time I would frequently do 10K rows at 20 spm with heart rate capped at upper limit of UT2, and would usually average around 2:06 to 2:08 per 500m without much trouble. During that time I averaged about 55K per week. After the 2K TT, I continued with relatively high weekly meters, cutting out the short hard intervals, but adding longer intervals on short rest and then “tempo” rows for 10K. I believe I might have gotten myself over-trained because my last few UT2 efforts, including on both sides of a week completely off of any exercise, have been more like 2:12 to 2:14 pace. So my question is, does this sound like typical overtraining and something that will come about every now and then? Could this have happened because my aerobic base is not very good, and now just spending time on the erg going slow for a couple of months is what I need? Thanks for any thoughts or advice.
Dave
If at some point, you really struggle and get slower, you are at least not recovering enough. The erg is easy to overdo.

Often a short period of rest is enough. Being really overtrained is worse, that takes longer.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

max_ratcliffe
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by max_ratcliffe » May 17th, 2019, 3:49 am

Andrew Shuck wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 3:26 am
@ Max, i loosely followed the pp for 22 weeks last season 2019 resulted in P.b.'s in 2k, 5k, 10k, HM, and a M. I stopped following the pp for 5 months as i felt physically and mentally exhausted.(Not just from rowing, busy at work and had building work going on at home for 3 months) However i continued to do UT2 work of 10k's 4-5 x a week.Including lifting weights.(Vince Gironda 8x8 routine)
The last 3 weeks i been loosely following PP again. As expected fitness/ speed dropped off, but i am making good progress. This season i did a 10k on 3rd May 36:33.1, my 2019 10k pb was 35:48.6 so not a massive difference in time.
I plan to do a 5k tomorrow.
Have a rest for a few days, take some time off PP, it wasn't designed to be followed week in/ out. Ease up, your body and mind will thank you.
All the very best Andrew. :D
Thanks Andrew,
I'm definitely not overtrained, although I might have been over reaching a bit in March. It may be a genuine concern for the OP, though; given some of his times, struggling along at 2.12 (more my kind of pace) might be a sign something is going awry.

Until I found this forum, I was racing every training session on the bpp. That was mentally exhausting, as well as a bit foolish. I had misunderstood the pacing guidelines, and was trying to match or beat PBs every session, as well as doing each interval flat out (bleurgh).

Cheers,
Max
48yo, 87kg, Pom living in Adelaide. PBs: 2k=7:34.7; 5k=19:44; 10k=42:13; 60min=14112m; HM=1:31.44

dsoucek
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by dsoucek » May 17th, 2019, 9:14 am

Thanks, everyone, for your comments.
I did a little more looking around and it seems that aside from slower pace at a given heart rate, I don't have many of the typical symptoms of true overtraining so I think it's just a dip as folks have suggested. I'll make sure to stay easy on most days but add back a day of short intervals to get my body used to going fast again.

I'm not sure how to express this clearly, but I'm gathering that I made the mistake of thinking that focusing solely on aerobic base training would increase my overall fitness. But overall fitness if we equate it with going fast on the erg, is dependent on both aerobic and anaerobic training? I left the latter out.

Anyway, thanks again for all of your comments.
Dave
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Gammmmo
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by Gammmmo » May 17th, 2019, 9:26 am

dsoucek wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 2:09 pm
I believe I might have gotten myself over-trained because my last few UT2 efforts, including on both sides of a week completely off of any exercise, have been more like 2:12 to 2:14 pace. So my question is, does this sound like typical overtraining and something that will come about every now and then? Could this have happened because my aerobic base is not very good, and now just spending time on the erg going slow for a couple of months is what I need? Thanks for any thoughts or advice.
Dave
Depends what you mean by "overtrained". That's quite hard to do. It doesn't just come on straight away, more like a gradual decline. You also need to consider what "form" is. Typically people often say it's impossible to hold form that long but it's now thought that is likely to be less to do with pure physicalities and more to do with getting mentally jaded, so this is some corollary to your state.
It also depends on what your endurance background is like and what sort of loads you can cope with. What was your trajectory on the erg? From zero to 55K a week? Much better to gradually build up. Get the impression the PP is not so easy to just go straight into.
Also, there is the issue of blood volume changing if you remain very inactive for certainly 3 days or more...you'll struggle most likely coming back onto the erg with even that sort of time off and a week will take 2 or 3 weeks of proper training for you to get back up to speed with unless you have plateaued for a very long time with your endurance capabilities. I, for instance, am not really training right now, I'm just ticking over....I have alot of endurance stuff under my belt among many different sports, and if I took a week off I wouldn't need 2/3 weeks to get back into doing training numbers that aren't really pushing my ability but which I tend to do week in week out as am in maintenace mode. You might be different if you've ramped up beforehand i.e. you'll lose quite a bit.

....sorry, bit of ramble, but just a lil' brain dump for your question.
Paul, 47M, 5'11" 77kg (all PBs done as a LWT tho'), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), 180kg deadlift

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dsoucek
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by dsoucek » May 17th, 2019, 9:40 am

Gammmmo,
good food for thought.
I was a runner for about 15 years. Not super fast, but had a 10 year stretch where i averaged 40 miles per week, and have run sub 3 hours for marathon four times. So I come from an endurance background, but I started erging in 2016 because of an injury. I don't run any more, but my pattern has been to get in good erg shape and then focus on strength training for a while. I'm trying to be more continuous in my erg training, but as you suggest, I bet my aerobic base wasn't super because of time spent on lifting, so "form" might be something that comes and goes quickly for me.

Unfortunately (from the training perspective), I have an upcoming 2 week vacation (in the UK) so I'll lose some more form, but it will come back I suppose.
Dave
48 yo, M, 5'9", 179 lbs
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G-dub
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by G-dub » May 18th, 2019, 6:10 am

Small things, but HR readings can change day to day. When it gets warm and humid, response changes. If you are dehydrated it does. Other stressors in life, sleep challenges, drinking too much, etc.
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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by Dangerscouse » May 18th, 2019, 6:13 am

Dave, don't discount the effect that lack of sleep, work / life stress and diet can have on your ability nevermind when you're just not 'feeling it'. Erg fitness is a fickle friend who will desert you at a moment's notice.

There are myriad reasons why you don't achieve what you want and some of my best sessions and PBs have been on days I had to drag myself to the gym or just didn't expect much.

You will undoubtedly lose fitness and form from two weeks off but a few weeks of some fairly horrible sessions will get you back on track. Remember to manage your 'inner chimp' when you do start back as they will be desperate for you to slow down or stop.
45 HWT; 6' 4"; Liverpool 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,356m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you Row"

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Re: Am I "overtrained"?

Post by Andrew Shuck » May 18th, 2019, 10:29 am

@ Max/.....Sorry my post was in response to Dave's 1st post, thanks for replying though. :)

A further point i would like to raise is optimal hydration inc salt / potassium.
Dehydration = lousy workout.
Male 52 yrs. 6'1"All time P.b's achieved in 2019/20....500m 1:22.91k 3:00.2 2k 6:19.25k 16:50.5 10k 34:57.3 1/2 M 1:17:37.3 60min 16557 full M 2:45:52.7 2018 100k 7:37.27.1
You're unique, just like everyone else..

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