What's your 2k strategy?

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mromero680
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What's your 2k strategy?

Post by mromero680 » August 16th, 2020, 1:06 pm

I guess there are several ways to approach a 2k.

Negative splits
Positive splits
Steady splits
Go as hard as you can and hang on

I usually plan for negative splits but always seem to start as hard as I can so I feel like I have some seconds in the bank if I have to draw on them at the end. I think that ensures I draw a few in that no man's land from 1k left to 500 left so I'll have to be more disciplined in future tests.
57/5'10"/HWT
500m: 1:36.9/ 2k: 6:59.2 / 5k: 18:53.2 / 30min: 7762 / 10k: 38:57.4 (2020 PBs)

Dangerscouse
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by Dangerscouse » August 16th, 2020, 2:30 pm

There is also the 'French Protocol' strategy.

Assuming you know your 500m PB this is used as the 100% baseline. In the 2k you do the first 500m at approximately 92 %, then subsequently 88%, 88% and 91%.

As an example, a 6:59 2k would be 1:42.2; 1:46.8; 1:46.8; 1:43.3

This is quite a lot based on what strategy works for you personally. Some people respond better to different strategies. Personally, I don't have much 'kick' left in me for the final 500m so I tend towards a steady split with a slight fade at the end, but I haven't ever tried to do the French Protocol so that may work as well
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

Tony Cook
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by Tony Cook » August 16th, 2020, 6:49 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 2:30 pm
There is also the 'French Protocol' strategy.

Assuming you know your 500m PB this is used as the 100% baseline. In the 2k you do the first 500m at approximately 92 %, then subsequently 88%, 88% and 91%.

As an example, a 6:59 2k would be 1:42.2; 1:46.8; 1:46.8; 1:43.3

This is quite a lot based on what strategy works for you personally. Some people respond better to different strategies. Personally, I don't have much 'kick' left in me for the final 500m so I tend towards a steady split with a slight fade at the end, but I haven't ever tried to do the French Protocol so that may work as well
That seems very optimistic.
My 500 PB = 1:30 = 480W
92% = 441.6W = 1:32.5
88% = 422.4W = 1:33.9
91% = 436.8W = 1:32.9
So 6:13.2 so 1:33.3 pace
What happened to double the distance = +5 seconds on the pace? For me 1:30 500m = 3:10 1,000m (1:35 pace) and 6:40 for 2k (1:40 pace).
I’m a long way off that let alone 6:13.
Born 1963 6' 5" 105Kg
PBs only from 2020 - 100m 15.7s - 1min 355m - 500m 1:30.0 - 2k 6:47.6 - 5k 17:59.4 - 6k 22:06.7 - 30min @ 20SPM 8,132m - 10k 39:47.3 - 1 hour 15,691m - HM 1:24:37.0

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max_ratcliffe
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by max_ratcliffe » August 16th, 2020, 8:26 pm

Tony Cook wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 6:49 pm
Dangerscouse wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 2:30 pm
There is also the 'French Protocol' strategy.

Assuming you know your 500m PB this is used as the 100% baseline. In the 2k you do the first 500m at approximately 92 %, then subsequently 88%, 88% and 91%.

As an example, a 6:59 2k would be 1:42.2; 1:46.8; 1:46.8; 1:43.3

This is quite a lot based on what strategy works for you personally. Some people respond better to different strategies. Personally, I don't have much 'kick' left in me for the final 500m so I tend towards a steady split with a slight fade at the end, but I haven't ever tried to do the French Protocol so that may work as well
That seems very optimistic.
My 500 PB = 1:30 = 480W
92% = 441.6W = 1:32.5
88% = 422.4W = 1:33.9
91% = 436.8W = 1:32.9
So 6:13.2 so 1:33.3 pace
What happened to double the distance = +5 seconds on the pace? For me 1:30 500m = 3:10 1,000m (1:35 pace) and 6:40 for 2k (1:40 pace).
I’m a long way off that let alone 6:13.
Tony,

I agree - basing it on power, as these things usually are based, results in a wildly optimistic 2k.

A spot of googling has sorted this out - it's based on speed. See:
http://highperformancerowing.net/journa ... ategy.html

A 1:30 split is a speed of 5.56m/s. 92% of this is 5.11m/s, or a split of 1:37.8, and so on.

The predicted 2k time for a 1:30 500 is 6:41.3, so pretty close to the "double add 5" method. Given your background as a power athlete, it's not surprising that your 500m is stronger than your 2k.
49yo, 82kg
PBs: 1'=328m; 500m=1:34.0; 1k=3:25:1; 2k=7:16.5; 5k=19:44; 6k=23:24; 30'=7534m; 10k=40.28; 60'=14621m; HM=1:27:46

2020 goals:
1k - sub 3:30; 30' > 7500m; 60' > 14600m; HM sub 1:29.00
2k - sub 7:15; 5k - sub 19:20; 10k - sub 40:00;

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max_ratcliffe
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by max_ratcliffe » August 16th, 2020, 11:18 pm

max_ratcliffe wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 8:26 pm
<>
The predicted 2k time for a 1:30 500 is 6:41.3, so pretty close to the "double add 5" method. Given your background as a power athlete, it's not surprising that your 500m is stronger than your 2k.
I should also point out (before I have to apologise to Henry :)) that Paul's law was never intended for predictions, and doesn't apply to the sprint distances.
49yo, 82kg
PBs: 1'=328m; 500m=1:34.0; 1k=3:25:1; 2k=7:16.5; 5k=19:44; 6k=23:24; 30'=7534m; 10k=40.28; 60'=14621m; HM=1:27:46

2020 goals:
1k - sub 3:30; 30' > 7500m; 60' > 14600m; HM sub 1:29.00
2k - sub 7:15; 5k - sub 19:20; 10k - sub 40:00;

Dangerscouse
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by Dangerscouse » August 17th, 2020, 12:58 am

max_ratcliffe wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 8:26 pm
Tony Cook wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 6:49 pm
Dangerscouse wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 2:30 pm
There is also the 'French Protocol' strategy.

Assuming you know your 500m PB this is used as the 100% baseline. In the 2k you do the first 500m at approximately 92 %, then subsequently 88%, 88% and 91%.

As an example, a 6:59 2k would be 1:42.2; 1:46.8; 1:46.8; 1:43.3

This is quite a lot based on what strategy works for you personally. Some people respond better to different strategies. Personally, I don't have much 'kick' left in me for the final 500m so I tend towards a steady split with a slight fade at the end, but I haven't ever tried to do the French Protocol so that may work as well
That seems very optimistic.
My 500 PB = 1:30 = 480W
92% = 441.6W = 1:32.5
88% = 422.4W = 1:33.9
91% = 436.8W = 1:32.9
So 6:13.2 so 1:33.3 pace
What happened to double the distance = +5 seconds on the pace? For me 1:30 500m = 3:10 1,000m (1:35 pace) and 6:40 for 2k (1:40 pace).
I’m a long way off that let alone 6:13.
Tony,

I agree - basing it on power, as these things usually are based, results in a wildly optimistic 2k.

A spot of googling has sorted this out - it's based on speed. See:
http://highperformancerowing.net/journa ... ategy.html

A 1:30 split is a speed of 5.56m/s. 92% of this is 5.11m/s, or a split of 1:37.8, and so on.

The predicted 2k time for a 1:30 500 is 6:41.3, so pretty close to the "double add 5" method. Given your background as a power athlete, it's not surprising that your 500m is stronger than your 2k.
Ta Max. In reality all of these 2k strategies are affected on many variables so there is never a 'if you do this, you will get this' strategy.

For the French Protocol it's far better to use it as a broad guide of really hard first 500, slow down a bit for the next 1k and then rebuild the pace for the last 500m.

For my 2k I've not followed that strategy, but the end result is more or less exactly as predicted
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

jamesg
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by jamesg » August 17th, 2020, 1:43 am

Right from my first race after 40 years I used the French protocol, and it got me two golds and a silver at European and national level. There were very few competitors of my age then.. (65). It works well if you have good technique, plenty of endurance and do the 500 test two days before. If your competition blasts off and has no endurance, like weightlifters, it's in the bag; 2k is a long way, so go slow anyway, you'll pass them all.

Otherwise the percentages can be adjusted to suit cases. The suggested percentages were for Olympic 4- crews who are never short on endurance. Nowadays I'd knock at least 5% off all those paces.

To see the effects of pacing try Xeno Muller Atlanta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wViOIIh7pUU

The 500 times can be seen on screen.
08-1940, 183cm, 87kg. Last seen MHR 162, in 2k (2020-05-16) 8.47.5@24

Tandstad
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by Tandstad » August 17th, 2020, 2:34 am

Slight negative splits for me, with anywhere from 3-6 HD's to actually finalize an attempt :lol:
35YO, 188 cm, 109 kg, NOR. Instagram: jtands
1K: 2:59(2020), 2K: 6:16(2020), 5K: 16:44(2020), 6K: 20:53(2020), 10K: 34:44(2020), 30min: 8743m(2020), 30r20: 8416(2020), 60min: 16672(2020)

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hjs
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by hjs » August 17th, 2020, 2:59 am

max_ratcliffe wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 11:18 pm
max_ratcliffe wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 8:26 pm
<>
The predicted 2k time for a 1:30 500 is 6:41.3, so pretty close to the "double add 5" method. Given your background as a power athlete, it's not surprising that your 500m is stronger than your 2k.
I should also point out (before I have to apologise to Henry :)) that Paul's law was never intended for predictions, and doesn't apply to the sprint distances.
1.30 will almost 100% certain not give a a 6.41, but wayyyy slower. The whole French protocol makes no sense. A sure way to kill your result.
My 2k strat. A few hard strokes, 5/7, settle at cruisepace. Keep this going to 1400m in, from there pick up the rating, at 300 to again more rating, last 100 all out.

Last 500 fastest, first second, middle 2 roughly alike.

Tony Cook
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by Tony Cook » August 17th, 2020, 4:14 am

max_ratcliffe wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 8:26 pm
Tony Cook wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 6:49 pm
Dangerscouse wrote:
August 16th, 2020, 2:30 pm
There is also the 'French Protocol' strategy.

Assuming you know your 500m PB this is used as the 100% baseline. In the 2k you do the first 500m at approximately 92 %, then subsequently 88%, 88% and 91%.

As an example, a 6:59 2k would be 1:42.2; 1:46.8; 1:46.8; 1:43.3

This is quite a lot based on what strategy works for you personally. Some people respond better to different strategies. Personally, I don't have much 'kick' left in me for the final 500m so I tend towards a steady split with a slight fade at the end, but I haven't ever tried to do the French Protocol so that may work as well
That seems very optimistic.
My 500 PB = 1:30 = 480W
92% = 441.6W = 1:32.5
88% = 422.4W = 1:33.9
91% = 436.8W = 1:32.9
So 6:13.2 so 1:33.3 pace
What happened to double the distance = +5 seconds on the pace? For me 1:30 500m = 3:10 1,000m (1:35 pace) and 6:40 for 2k (1:40 pace).
I’m a long way off that let alone 6:13.
Tony,

I agree - basing it on power, as these things usually are based, results in a wildly optimistic 2k.

A spot of googling has sorted this out - it's based on speed. See:
http://highperformancerowing.net/journa ... ategy.html

A 1:30 split is a speed of 5.56m/s. 92% of this is 5.11m/s, or a split of 1:37.8, and so on.

The predicted 2k time for a 1:30 500 is 6:41.3, so pretty close to the "double add 5" method. Given your background as a power athlete, it's not surprising that your 500m is stronger than your 2k.
Thanks Max, really interesting. We know that what happens in your head is as important as what happens in your body but my head tells me that a 1:38 first 500 = HD.
I appreciate I am a relative novice with only a handful of 2ks under my belt but other than the first 7-10 hard pulls giving me a slightly quicker first 500 then it’s even splits all the way for me. My last 250 is at absolute maximum effort but by that time I’m just maintaining the pace and the screaming muscles are not making me go any faster.
I’m doing the C2 2k training plan and have the midway test in a couple of weeks. I’d love to be able to do a 6:40 - eventually - but don’t think it’s sensible to go for that yet. My 6:54 is only a couple of months ago and 14 seconds is too much to take off at this stage (in my head). So what do I go for now? I’m thinking try to trim 4/5 seconds off to dip just under 6:50 and then go for 6:45 in 8 weeks?
Born 1963 6' 5" 105Kg
PBs only from 2020 - 100m 15.7s - 1min 355m - 500m 1:30.0 - 2k 6:47.6 - 5k 17:59.4 - 6k 22:06.7 - 30min @ 20SPM 8,132m - 10k 39:47.3 - 1 hour 15,691m - HM 1:24:37.0

rtbrouwer
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by rtbrouwer » August 17th, 2020, 6:16 am

My 1st and 4th 500m are ussually the quickest, the middle 1k slowest.
I always feel like the first 100m is almost for free (I know it isn't but that's how my mind works) because of adranaline etc. So I try to start off pretty strong in the 1st 500 to make sure I am 1,5 or 2 seconds ahead of schedule. Then I try to keep my pace pretty flat for 1k and then empty the tank in the last 500m.

No matter how you pace a 2k, it's going to hurt like hell anyway. And for me it simply helps to know that after the first 500m I can lose some time and still make my target time. Negative splitting is the other way around, you are already dying and the tought that I have to pick up the pace even further just kills me mentally. I like to enter the paincave straight away and then hold on for dear life, knowing I can slow down a little bit and still 'survive'.

So I was aiming for 7min 2k I would have the following strategy
1:43
1:46
1:46
1:44
Which would bring me to 6:59 total.
PB: 500m 1:24.8 - 1k 3:13 - 2k 6:48 - 5k 18:17 - 6k 21:59 - 30m 8064m - 10k 38:09 60m 15771 HM 1:20:45
YB: 500m 1:24.8 - 1k 0:00 - 2k 6:48 - 5k 18:34 - 6k 21:59 - 30m 8064m - 10k 38:09 60m 15771 HM 1:20:45

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max_ratcliffe
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by max_ratcliffe » August 17th, 2020, 7:59 am

Tony Cook wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 4:14 am
<>
Thanks Max, really interesting. We know that what happens in your head is as important as what happens in your body but my head tells me that a 1:38 first 500 = HD.
I appreciate I am a relative novice with only a handful of 2ks under my belt but other than the first 7-10 hard pulls giving me a slightly quicker first 500 then it’s even splits all the way for me. My last 250 is at absolute maximum effort but by that time I’m just maintaining the pace and the screaming muscles are not making me go any faster.
I’m doing the C2 2k training plan and have the midway test in a couple of weeks. I’d love to be able to do a 6:40 - eventually - but don’t think it’s sensible to go for that yet. My 6:54 is only a couple of months ago and 14 seconds is too much to take off at this stage (in my head). So what do I go for now? I’m thinking try to trim 4/5 seconds off to dip just under 6:50 and then go for 6:45 in 8 weeks?
It doesn't look too silly at the lower levels - a 7:30 with a 500m of 1.41 seems not unreasonable, for example. But at the higher speeds, it just doesn't reflect reality.

We should apparently be expecting a 6:03 from Martin soon (and if he hadn't hurt himself on the 1', I suspect that his "projection" would have been 5:52 or so). No offence to Martin, but I don't think that's likely!
49yo, 82kg
PBs: 1'=328m; 500m=1:34.0; 1k=3:25:1; 2k=7:16.5; 5k=19:44; 6k=23:24; 30'=7534m; 10k=40.28; 60'=14621m; HM=1:27:46

2020 goals:
1k - sub 3:30; 30' > 7500m; 60' > 14600m; HM sub 1:29.00
2k - sub 7:15; 5k - sub 19:20; 10k - sub 40:00;

lindsayh
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by lindsayh » August 17th, 2020, 8:19 am

there are entire threads devoted to this over many years - much debated but a search is informative
The consensus though is that going out too fast is the biggest mistake and should be avoided - sends the wrong message to the body to mobilise systems too urgently and a recipe for hitting a wall
Most offer 500 splits x4 to divide up and you really have to have a target in mind
a long and thoughtful piece by Mike Caviston suggests a negative split strategy starting around target +1-2 and finishing target -1/2 is the most efficient physiologically
Jon Bone (Nav Hazard) analysed the actual pacing of WRIC winners a couple of years ago which suggested that most followed a fast/slow/slow/fast pattern although mostly the pacing is pretty flat with only a few secs per 500 in each split.

using a 500 piece to predict a 2k time is pretty much useless/inaccurate - totally different skill/performance between a pure anerobic sprinter and an aerobic meter muncher. FWIW my 2k at its best was 1:42.0 when I was 500 @1:26.0 - others will be much closer if they aren't sprinters
There are some interval sessions that are more reliable such as 4x1k and 8x500 but the best predictor is to do a 2k.
Lindsay
69yo 93kg
Sydney Australia
Forum Flyer
PBs (65y+) 1 min 349m, 500m 1:29.8, 1k 3:11.7 2k 6:47.4, 5km 18:07.9, 30' 7928m, 10k 37:57.2, 60' 15368m

KeithT
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by KeithT » August 17th, 2020, 8:53 am

Agree with most that have responded in that a slight negative split is the way to go and is how I got all my PBs in 2K. My first 500m might be a little faster but that's due to some hard pulls to start. I do 5-10 hard pulls then settle at a pace just over intended split. Will mostly keep it there thru 1K and then see where I am, usually go a little faster 3rd 500 and then last 500 is all about what I have left and typically the final sprint gives me a slightly faster last 500m. Have used other strategies on other rows (different distances) and never seemed optimal. In fact trying to "build a cushion" has hurt some of my recent TTs.
52 yo, 6'3" 200#
PBs (all since turning 50):
1 min - 373m, 500m - 1:21.9, 1K - 2:59.4, 4 min - 1265m, 2K - 6:29.4, 5K - 17:23, 30 min - 8366m, 10K - 35:54, 60 min - 16110, HM - 1:20:17, FM - 2:47:46

boomingaway
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Re: What's your 2k strategy?

Post by boomingaway » August 17th, 2020, 8:59 am

What is the logic behind the few hard pulls to start? I've seen it mentioned everywhere so I know it's correct, but why does it apply to rowing and not other endurance sports?
33M, 173cm, 75kg
100m: 17.4, 1': 337m, 500m: 1:34, 1k: 3:23, 2k: 7:17, 5k: 19:53, 6k: 23:58, 60': 14112m

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