Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

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dmusicant
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Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by dmusicant » September 22nd, 2020, 9:22 pm

OK, my first post. I just assembled my new Model D Rower and tried it out for 15 minutes or so.

At the highest setting (10), it doesn't seem like I can get my heart rate up.

Some background:

I turned 77 in August. I'm in OK condition, no serious issues, but have had shoulder problems (surgery), PT, doing not too badly lately. Some pain in right knee sometimes, off and on, mostly going up my house's stairs.

I have a road bike, and before the pandemic would go to the gym 3 times/week, 5 miles away, biking 1/2 way, then locking up my bike and quad skate the rest of the way to the gym. After my 1.5 hour workout (without aerobic, usually) I'd reverse the traverse and make it home. About a year ago I bought a HR monitor, which I used with my Android phone, would push my HR on the trip to/from gym up to 150 BPM sometimes and as high as 160 maybe for a moment.

So, gym is closed down and lately I was on a cheap bike trainer in the house using my road bike, getting my HR over 140 part of the time, over 150 occasionally. The total being maybe 25 minutes. I was doing this maybe 4x/week, sometimes more until around 2 months ago.

Then I got back to skating the streets and I've been doing that for almost 2 months almost every day. The last couple weeks I'm skating 38-40 minutes, same route repeated 6 times, and it's a slight hill so I have 6 peaks and 6 troughs. At the peaks I reach 140-160 BPM, even hit 173 one day. This morning I hit 160 max, average of 137 BPM, again this is quad skating on a smooth street (with speed bumps every 75 yards or so). So, this is a decent aerobic workout.

So, this evening I get on my new Model D Rower and I'm wondering how the heck I can even get 130 BPM on this thing at top resistance! Am I doing something wrong? Is mine maybe defective? I think my form isn't too bad... Thanks for guidance!

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by Citroen » September 23rd, 2020, 2:58 am

Knock that damper lever down to between 4 & 5 then read this https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... etting-101 to understand why you've just done that.

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by mict450 » September 23rd, 2020, 3:52 am

dmusicant wrote:
September 22nd, 2020, 9:22 pm

So, this evening I get on my new Model D Rower and I'm wondering how the heck I can even get 130 BPM on this thing at top resistance! Am I doing something wrong? Is mine maybe defective? I think my form isn't too bad... Thanks for guidance!
Welcome to the forum. In answer to your questions.....most likely, there is nothing wrong with your rower. 99.9% of the time, it's a problem with your form. Check out youtube for rowing drills to help you learn the correct technique. If you're no bashful, post a video of yourself rowing. We have a lot of sharp-eyed members who could help you iron out your stroke.

Rowing looks simple, but is a highly nuanced-filled movement that must be learned, practiced & perfected to get the most out of the erg, without getting injured.

Also, here's a thread with good advice not only for beginners, but also seasoned ergers:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by dmusicant » September 23rd, 2020, 4:01 pm

Thanks for the replies! I will pursue the info.

Did a followup session this morning, 10:00 minutes exactly.

Lowered the resistance to 4 before starting. Strategy in mind was to get maximum chain retraction/extension while developing a rhythm and some semblance of form. I felt I was getting somewhere!

1413 meters total
3:34m/500m average
3:24/500m minimum IIRC

Will watch videos, study this.

Will try to achieve heart rates above 150. Am about to go for my daily 5.5 miles skate now, with HR monitor on. Yesterday reached HR briefly.

This felt good, no physical issues so far.

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by Allan Olesen » September 23rd, 2020, 5:54 pm

dmusicant wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 4:01 pm
Strategy in mind was to get maximum chain retraction/extension
Don't worry too much about that. You problem is probably not how far you pull the chain, but how hard you pull the chain.

You can easily do a lot of "chain metres per minute" without feeling much resistance. You just set the flywheel in motion at low speed and sort of follows it with the chain and then rush back to the catch when you reach the end. But you don't produce much power that way, and your heart will know that. That is why your heart rate is so low.

If you want to make power - and the heart rate, which follows - you need to spin the flywheel up hard in the drive phase. This is what creates the resistance, much more than the damper setting does.

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by mitchel674 » September 23rd, 2020, 7:54 pm

dmusicant wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 4:01 pm
Thanks for the replies! I will pursue the info.

Did a followup session this morning, 10:00 minutes exactly.

Lowered the resistance to 4 before starting. Strategy in mind was to get maximum chain retraction/extension while developing a rhythm and some semblance of form. I felt I was getting somewhere!

1413 meters total
3:34m/500m average
3:24/500m minimum IIRC

Will watch videos, study this.

Will try to achieve heart rates above 150. Am about to go for my daily 5.5 miles skate now, with HR monitor on. Yesterday reached HR briefly.

This felt good, no physical issues so far.
Allan has hit upon your issue. You need to pull the chain harder. Consider learning about the force curve. You need to pull the chain harder and with more accelleration to generate more power. You 3:34 split time reveals a very weak pull considering how athletic you are in other areas.

I often recommend this video from the concept2 founder. Great info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ0Mqlk_Lo&t=4s

I have this same discussion with my 57 year old wife. She also complains that rowing doesn't seem to get her heart rate up yet she only pulls 3:00 splits. I've given up telling her to pull harder which has helped our marital harmony.
55yo male, 6ft, 154lbs

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by mict450 » September 23rd, 2020, 8:08 pm

mitchel674 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 7:54 pm

I have this same discussion with my 57 year old wife. She also complains that rowing doesn't seem to get her heart rate up yet she only pulls 3:00 splits. I've given up telling her to pull harder which has helped our marital harmony.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!! Mebbe one day I'll learn to keep my mouth shut & marital bliss will ensue. :mrgreen:
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by Ombrax » September 23rd, 2020, 9:47 pm

dmusicant wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 4:01 pm
3:34m/500m average
As others have pointed out, this ^^^^ is your problem - your heart isn't working hard because you aren't rowing hard.
To use a cycling analogy, it's as if someone is on a bike, flat road, no wind, going 10 mph, and wondering why their heart rate isn't higher.

While maintaining good technique (tons of info on that here, and the C2 web site has good info and videos too) and a stroke rate of say, 20-24 spm you want to bring your average pace from 3:34 / 500m down to 2:30, or lower if you can. (2:00 and better can be your ultimate goal, but don't rush things and try to do too much too soon).

And the best way to go faster is to push HARD with your legs. As I said, be sure to watch the C2 instructional videos. You want to do it properly. It's a simple motion, but there are lots of ways to do it wrong.

Good Luck

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by dmusicant » September 24th, 2020, 6:27 pm

mict450 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 3:52 am

Welcome to the forum. In answer to your questions.....most likely, there is nothing wrong with your rower. 99.9% of the time, it's a problem with your form. Check out youtube for rowing drills to help you learn the correct technique. If you're no bashful, post a video of yourself rowing. We have a lot of sharp-eyed members who could help you iron out your stroke.

Rowing looks simple, but is a highly nuanced-filled movement that must be learned, practiced & perfected to get the most out of the erg, without getting injured.

Also, here's a thread with good advice not only for beginners, but also seasoned ergers:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257
I'm doing better, have a long way to go. Started Tuesday with that basically awful start. Yesterday did 10 minutes averaging 3:34/500m, so something. Today, 10 minutes averaging 2:56.8 m/500m. Strokes/min 27-30 range, which I'm told is way high, not something I realized.

Not the first time I rowed... I built a 14 foot dory rowboat in 1972 or so on Maui. Beautiful thing, and I had to leave it there prematurely, sad story. Anyway, after that I was a runner until one of my feet hurt too bad to run (1985), so started swimming instead. After a few months of 1 mile/day I doubled that and for 10 years I swam 2 miles/day, laps and taking splits, best 2 mile times under 51 minutes. After a year or two of that I added 1 1/2 hours in the weight room to that 7 days/week routine! I took splits on my swims. Swam 5 miles on my 50th birthday. After 10 years my shoulder gave out and couldn't swim anymore! Eventually had surgery on the bad foot and not long after that on my bad shoulder. But I wouldn't try running or swimming anymore. Figure I could never do either again at the level I did before and I'd likely injure myself. Maybe some light swimming, who knows, but the way I used to jam, likely impossible not to sustain injury.

I'm 5'10", today weigh 177lb, 77 YO. Healthy, but some pain in wrists, shoulders, right knee sometimes. No diabetes, no hypertension. I have been hitting 160 bpm tops sometimes, even more on my best days quad skating the streets the last 2 months, been doing that just about every day, 5.4 miles total, up and down a gentle hill 6 times. Fun! Kinda dangerous (if I fall) but fun and I do push myself. With winter weather coming on, looked for an indoor cardio solution and was recommended the Model D and here I am, just starting.

I could take video of my rowing, don't know how I'd post it, don't remember ever posting video before. I have a few cameras... DSLR, a Canon ELPH that does video too, a tripod. That noobie thread quoted above in this post seems like it has some good ideas. Gym's been closed since March, so I'm improvising now. Have some light dumbbells and a Tribe Fitness Resistance Bands Set that I haven't gotten into yet.

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by mitchel674 » September 24th, 2020, 6:54 pm

dmusicant wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 6:27 pm
mict450 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 3:52 am

Welcome to the forum. In answer to your questions.....most likely, there is nothing wrong with your rower. 99.9% of the time, it's a problem with your form. Check out youtube for rowing drills to help you learn the correct technique. If you're no bashful, post a video of yourself rowing. We have a lot of sharp-eyed members who could help you iron out your stroke.

Rowing looks simple, but is a highly nuanced-filled movement that must be learned, practiced & perfected to get the most out of the erg, without getting injured.

Also, here's a thread with good advice not only for beginners, but also seasoned ergers:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257
I'm doing better, have a long way to go. Started Tuesday with that basically awful start. Yesterday did 10 minutes averaging 3:34/500m, so something. Today, 10 minutes averaging 2:56.8 m/500m. Strokes/min 27-30 range, which I'm told is way high, not something I realized.

Not the first time I rowed... I built a 14 foot dory rowboat in 1972 or so on Maui. Beautiful thing, and I had to leave it there prematurely, sad story. Anyway, after that I was a runner until one of my feet hurt too bad to run (1985), so started swimming instead. After a few months of 1 mile/day I doubled that and for 10 years I swam 2 miles/day, laps and taking splits, best 2 mile times under 51 minutes. After a year or two of that I added 1 1/2 hours in the weight room to that 7 days/week routine! I took splits on my swims. Swam 5 miles on my 50th birthday. After 10 years my shoulder gave out and couldn't swim anymore! Eventually had surgery on the bad foot and not long after that on my bad shoulder. But I wouldn't try running or swimming anymore. Figure I could never do either again at the level I did before and I'd likely injure myself. Maybe some light swimming, who knows, but the way I used to jam, likely impossible not to sustain injury.

I'm 5'10", today weigh 177lb, 77 YO. Healthy, but some pain in wrists, shoulders, right knee sometimes. No diabetes, no hypertension. I have been hitting 160 bpm tops sometimes, even more on my best days quad skating the streets the last 2 months, been doing that just about every day, 5.4 miles total, up and down a gentle hill 6 times. Fun! Kinda dangerous (if I fall) but fun and I do push myself. With winter weather coming on, looked for an indoor cardio solution and was recommended the Model D and here I am, just starting.

I could take video of my rowing, don't know how I'd post it, don't remember ever posting video before. I have a few cameras... DSLR, a Canon ELPH that does video too, a tripod. That noobie thread quoted above in this post seems like it has some good ideas. Gym's been closed since March, so I'm improvising now. Have some light dumbbells and a Tribe Fitness Resistance Bands Set that I haven't gotten into yet.
Look, you sound like you're in great shape at 77 years old. The fact of the matter is that your rowing stroke right now is only producing 35 watts of power. This is woefully weak. You are easily capable of 2-3 times that amount of power right now. Think about your inline skating and how you push off hard on that skate when going up hill. This is what you need to be thinking about with each rowing stroke. It's not just a light paddle moving up and down the slide with no effort. Don't just increase your rate with the same weak stroke. Figure out how to get a stronger stroke at a lower rate.

Did you watch the video I suggested? Take the time and learn how to generate power now. I promise you it will get your heart rate up.
55yo male, 6ft, 154lbs

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by jamesg » September 25th, 2020, 2:14 am

So, this evening I get on my new Model D Rower and I'm wondering how the heck I can even get 130 BPM on this thing at top resistance! Am I doing something wrong? Is mine maybe defective? I think my form isn't too bad... Thanks for guidance!
Your past work was all legs, so these are strong. Rowing can use the legs, without damage to arms and shoulders, if we know how.

Standard erging technique on a slide allows just this, as if in a fast moving boat, so must be used. The key points are the recovery sequence: hands away, swing, then slide; and posture: the catch is taken with the slide 40-50 cm from the heels, straight back and shoulders well forward (belly permititng). During the pull, the legs do the work and the arms and shoulders transmit it only, to avoid injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dzPz0tD5I

When erging on a slide, the peak power during the pull is high (up to 1 kW) because we use two legs together, fast. So we use low ratings with a long rest in between pulls, at 18-23, to avoid early shutdown.

For example, ergdata shows me 35 kg, pull speed 2m/s (on drag 85) which implies 35g x 2 = 680 W. So I paddle at 19-20 to bring it down to a more manageable 120 W average.
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 155, in 2k (2020-12-03) 8.47.6@23

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by Dangerscouse » September 25th, 2020, 10:51 am

dmusicant wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 6:27 pm
I'm doing better, have a long way to go. Started Tuesday with that basically awful start. Yesterday did 10 minutes averaging 3:34/500m, so something. Today, 10 minutes averaging 2:56.8 m/500m. Strokes/min 27-30 range, which I'm told is way high, not something I realized.
It's a very common mistake to row, with a weak stroke, at 30spm+ to begin with, but that's not to say that higher rates aren't important, and should be avoided. I love rowing at r28-30.

What you need to do is get stronger with a lower stroke rate e.g r18-22. This will feel really slow and strange to start with, so work on reducing the strokes, down by one or two, over a two week period so you can get accustomed to it.

Your drive phase should remain fast and powerful, but your recovery phase will be notably slower: that's where you make the stroke go slower. If you don't you will just go slower than before and you might as well stay at the higher stroke rates.

Keep what Mitchel says about an explosive push in your mind, this is great advice. Stay patient, don't expect instant results, and your improvement of almost 40 secs average pace is a great sign that you're getting used to the movement.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,461m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:44:04; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by mict450 » September 25th, 2020, 12:30 pm

dmusicant wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 6:27 pm

Yesterday did 10 minutes averaging 3:34/500m, so something. Today, 10 minutes averaging 2:56.8 m/500m.
Wow! Good job!
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by dmusicant » September 25th, 2020, 1:02 pm

mict450 wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 12:30 pm
dmusicant wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 6:27 pm

Yesterday did 10 minutes averaging 3:34/500m, so something. Today, 10 minutes averaging 2:56.8 m/500m.
Wow! Good job!
So, evening, before dinner, did a 2nd session yesterday. After watching some videos, which gave me insight into how I can achieve lower stroke rates without sacrificing boat speed. Object was to get down to 18-20 s/min. That's what I was seeing, but the display at the end said 23s/m. I'm wondering if that was just at the end or was the average... it didn't say. Right now I am using the default display, I have no idea how to use the PM5!

It was my longest session, 25:00 (others were 10:00). It was warm in the room, 80F! I was wearing pants, not shorts. I'm going to graduate to shorts, everyone seems in shorts in the videos.

So, at the lower stroke rate the speed wasn't fantastic: Average: 318.6m/500m

I'm going to watch all those videos posted in this thread. Thank you!!!

I did watch one amazing video yesterday before doing this session in the evening, which is a to-me incredible routine for beginners, expertly executed in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymKHcywkuc Rowing Workouts - The PERFECT BEGINNERS Workout About 26 minutes

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Re: Concept2 Model D Rower -- HR monitoring

Post by mitchel674 » September 25th, 2020, 1:09 pm

dmusicant wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 1:02 pm


So, at the lower stroke rate the speed wasn't fantastic: Average: 318.6m/500m

I'm going to watch all those videos posted in this thread. Thank you!!!

I did watch one amazing video yesterday before doing this session in the evening, which is a to-me incredible routine for beginners, expertly executed in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymKHcywkuc Rowing Workouts - The PERFECT BEGINNERS Workout About 26 minutes
I row along with that video every sunday morning as my warmup before my 60 minute row. It's really a great video which breaks down all the elements of the stroke. The low rate of 18 for 20 minutes helps you focus on your technique.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Average: 318.6m/500m". That doesn't make any sense to me.
55yo male, 6ft, 154lbs

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