1k pace for a 7min 2K?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
alex9026
2k Poster
Posts: 235
Joined: September 11th, 2022, 1:24 pm

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by alex9026 » May 3rd, 2024, 7:07 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 4:55 am
Clearly you know yourself far better than me, but I'm thinking that five rows and four weights is a lot of training. Can you condense the weights to twice a week and all body workouts?
+1 on this. Muscle mass can be maintained on twice a week/three sessions over ten days with appropriate programing and nutrition. I noted in another topic thread you went through a hypertrophy block, so maybe now is a good time to dial the weights back and increase intensity on the Erg. You said yourself, it's very hard to manage both. This all depends on your priorities of course....
33 6'2 93kg
1min 362m 500m 1:26 2k 6:31 5k 17:52

iain
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Location: Reading, UK

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by iain » May 3rd, 2024, 8:08 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 4:55 am
Imo, I think that 5 x 1500m is a better option, but I do know that a lot of others really like 4 x 1k.
Apologies for an aside, but Stu, why 5 x 1.5k? Most people say this is around 5k pace. The advantage of the 4 x 1k is that it is close to 2k pace. It may well be that Stu's approach would be better for OP as he acknowledges that fitness is currently his weakness. But as I said above (if somewhat patronisingly, sorry) a big part of improving 2k is getting comfortable at 2k pace and rating as well as building the confidence that you can achieve the target to draw on when doubts arise and establishing appropriate pace targets. So I think at least one attempt of 4 x 1k prior to your next attempt would be a good idea.
55, lightweight in pace, trying to get back to Lwt by gravity. Currently training 3 times a week after a break to slowly regain the pitiful fitness I achieved a few years ago. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

Spinal
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Posts: 224
Joined: September 25th, 2021, 6:57 am

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by Spinal » May 3rd, 2024, 9:45 am

robhely wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 2:14 am

Thanks, really interesting to hear about your 2k journey as a LW. That's a huge improvement going from 7:19 to 6:58, the training really paid off!

It definitely sounds like I need to do more speed work, especially longer intervals such as 4 x 1000.

It's manageable for me to to do SS sessions on the same day as lifting, but not intervals (as I've learned the hard way), so I might have to rethink my current plan of 5 x rowing and 4 x strength training sessions per week.

It will be fun to mix it up a bit, I am getting a bit sick of holding back in the UT2 zone most of the time. Especially as I've slowed down my UT2 as I was going a bit too hard to facilitate recovery.
Balancing weightlifting with rowing improvements is difficult. It often feels necessary to choose between Zone 2 training with lifting or forgoing lifting to increase intensity on the erg. Sascha is better equipped to provide advice on managing both activities effectively.

The PP offers a decent mix of speed and endurance intervals. However, the linear progression of the PP and the requirement to push to the limit in the final interval to lower the average becomes brutal after several cycles. I find it overly demanding and have to spread the weekly cycle over 10-11 days to ensure quality sleep and avoid excessive irritability. :mrgreen:
1981, 172cm, 70.5kg LWT
Row 2k 6:58.2 5k 18:43.8
Ski 5k 18:49.1 60mins 15105mtrs HM 1:23:59.6

Dangerscouse
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Posts: 10024
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by Dangerscouse » May 3rd, 2024, 9:49 am

iain wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 8:08 am
Dangerscouse wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 4:55 am
Imo, I think that 5 x 1500m is a better option, but I do know that a lot of others really like 4 x 1k.
Apologies for an aside, but Stu, why 5 x 1.5k? Most people say this is around 5k pace. The advantage of the 4 x 1k is that it is close to 2k pace. It may well be that Stu's approach would be better for OP as he acknowledges that fitness is currently his weakness. But as I said above (if somewhat patronisingly, sorry) a big part of improving 2k is getting comfortable at 2k pace and rating as well as building the confidence that you can achieve the target to draw on when doubts arise and establishing appropriate pace targets. So I think at least one attempt of 4 x 1k prior to your next attempt would be a good idea.
Good point, and I view the first four as challenging and the last one as all out, so there's a better combination of close enough to the full distance, a good degree of pre-exhaustion and then a bigger required for the last one.

For me, and possibly only me, this is a better confidence booster as I find 1k doesn't really feel disgusting enough in that very particular style of disgustingness. Obviously it can be horrific if you go full throttle, but when it starts to notably bite, you're probably at 750m to go, rather than 1250m.

Don't get me wrong 4 x 1k definitely play an important role, but I'd also recommend doing longer distances as these add something different too, and might be the slight edge that you need to pull through near the end.

I've seen so often that we're all slightly different in many many ways and what works for some may or may not work for others, or it might need some small adjustment eg more or less rest.

I've always got an inquisitive mind and I like to occasionally try different things to see if they're better or worse. We can all become accustomed to what we do habitually do, but it's not always going to be optimal. After all, as Heraclitus said, "no one steps in the same river twice". The only constant is change.
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

nick rockliff
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2193
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:54 pm
Location: UK

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by nick rockliff » May 3rd, 2024, 9:58 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 9:49 am
iain wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 8:08 am
Dangerscouse wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 4:55 am
Imo, I think that 5 x 1500m is a better option, but I do know that a lot of others really like 4 x 1k.
Apologies for an aside, but Stu, why 5 x 1.5k? Most people say this is around 5k pace. The advantage of the 4 x 1k is that it is close to 2k pace. It may well be that Stu's approach would be better for OP as he acknowledges that fitness is currently his weakness. But as I said above (if somewhat patronisingly, sorry) a big part of improving 2k is getting comfortable at 2k pace and rating as well as building the confidence that you can achieve the target to draw on when doubts arise and establishing appropriate pace targets. So I think at least one attempt of 4 x 1k prior to your next attempt would be a good idea.
Good point, and I view the first four as challenging and the last one as all out, so there's a better combination of close enough to the full distance, a good degree of pre-exhaustion and then a bigger required for the last one.

For me, and possibly only me, this is a better confidence booster as I find 1k doesn't really feel disgusting enough in that very particular style of disgustingness. Obviously it can be horrific if you go full throttle, but when it starts to notably bite, you're probably at 750m to go, rather than 1250m.

Don't get me wrong 4 x 1k definitely play an important role, but I'd also recommend doing longer distances as these add something different too, and might be the slight edge that you need to pull through near the end.

I've seen so often that we're all slightly different in many many ways and what works for some may or may not work for others, or it might need some small adjustment eg more or less rest.

I've always got an inquisitive mind and I like to occasionally try different things to see if they're better or worse. We can all become accustomed to what we do habitually do, but it's not always going to be optimal. After all, as Heraclitus said, "no one steps in the same river twice". The only constant is change.
I never did 4 x 1k, preferred 3x750 or 2x1250 at race pace/rate.

Never did any type of speed work during base work. Speed work came into the program about four weeks before a race. UT2 would also be dropped at that time too. Then between races it was a case of maintaining race fitness because they would come in quick succession back in the day.
67 6' 4" 108kg
PBs 2k 6:16.4 5k 16:37.5 10k 34:35.5 30m 8727 60m 17059 HM 74:25.9 FM 2:43:48.8
50s PBs 2k 6.24.3 5k 16.55.4 6k 20.34.2 10k 35.19.0 30m 8633 60m 16685 HM 76.48.7
60s PBs 5k 17.51.2 10k 36.42.6 30m 8263 60m 16089 HM 79.16.6

alex9026
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Posts: 235
Joined: September 11th, 2022, 1:24 pm

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by alex9026 » May 3rd, 2024, 10:45 am

nick rockliff wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 9:58 am
I never did 4 x 1k, preferred 3x750 or 2x1250 at race pace/rate.

Never did any type of speed work during base work. Speed work came into the program about four weeks before a race. UT2 would also be dropped at that time too. Then between races it was a case of maintaining race fitness because they would come in quick succession back in the day.
Sorry to go slightly off course for the OP but he may still find it relevant: did you ever row on the water, Nick? Or did the UK indoor race calendar have more going on then than it does these days? How you approached your racing is how I did running, essentially the race season kept me fit, but you are/were never short of a race to enter.
33 6'2 93kg
1min 362m 500m 1:26 2k 6:31 5k 17:52

nick rockliff
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2193
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:54 pm
Location: UK

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by nick rockliff » May 3rd, 2024, 12:08 pm

alex9026 wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 10:45 am
nick rockliff wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 9:58 am
I never did 4 x 1k, preferred 3x750 or 2x1250 at race pace/rate.

Never did any type of speed work during base work. Speed work came into the program about four weeks before a race. UT2 would also be dropped at that time too. Then between races it was a case of maintaining race fitness because they would come in quick succession back in the day.
Sorry to go slightly off course for the OP but he may still find it relevant: did you ever row on the water, Nick? Or did the UK indoor race calendar have more going on then than it does these days? How you approached your racing is how I did running, essentially the race season kept me fit, but you are/were never short of a race to enter.
The first race was a summer one run by Eddie Fletcher, the Evesham Golden Mile, the the season started in September usually Enfield 2K then a couple more before the Newark Mile which was just before BIRC. Think I did about 15 races in one season between Sept and April.
67 6' 4" 108kg
PBs 2k 6:16.4 5k 16:37.5 10k 34:35.5 30m 8727 60m 17059 HM 74:25.9 FM 2:43:48.8
50s PBs 2k 6.24.3 5k 16.55.4 6k 20.34.2 10k 35.19.0 30m 8633 60m 16685 HM 76.48.7
60s PBs 5k 17.51.2 10k 36.42.6 30m 8263 60m 16089 HM 79.16.6

nick rockliff
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2193
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:54 pm
Location: UK

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by nick rockliff » May 3rd, 2024, 12:12 pm

Moved to correct thread :oops:
67 6' 4" 108kg
PBs 2k 6:16.4 5k 16:37.5 10k 34:35.5 30m 8727 60m 17059 HM 74:25.9 FM 2:43:48.8
50s PBs 2k 6.24.3 5k 16.55.4 6k 20.34.2 10k 35.19.0 30m 8633 60m 16685 HM 76.48.7
60s PBs 5k 17.51.2 10k 36.42.6 30m 8263 60m 16089 HM 79.16.6

alex9026
2k Poster
Posts: 235
Joined: September 11th, 2022, 1:24 pm

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by alex9026 » May 3rd, 2024, 1:13 pm

nick rockliff wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 12:08 pm
The first race was a summer one run by Eddie Fletcher, the Evesham Golden Mile, the the season started in September usually Enfield 2K then a couple more before the Newark Mile which was just before BIRC. Think I did about 15 races in one season between Sept and April.
Good work, there is no substitute for racing, so it's an all eggs in one basket approach with BIRC these days.
33 6'2 93kg
1min 362m 500m 1:26 2k 6:31 5k 17:52

ahooton
Paddler
Posts: 36
Joined: March 11th, 2024, 7:18 pm

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by ahooton » May 3rd, 2024, 5:08 pm

I have found that the intervals that keep you in the 1:45 pace or under hugely beneficial. My inexperienced view on it is training your body to be able to hold that pace for longer and longer until you can do it for 2k non stop.

I am still new to all this so might be wrong, I just feel that works for me.

Good luck with it mate.
M 6’4. 96Kg 43
2k - 6:44.0
5k - 18:20.7
6k - 22:07.9
10k - 37:49
30 mins-8067m
1hr - 15513m
HM - 1:21.44
FM - 2:56.56

Sakly
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: January 13th, 2022, 10:49 am

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by Sakly » May 4th, 2024, 12:50 am

ahooton wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 5:08 pm
I am still new to all this so might be wrong, I just feel that works for me.
That works for everyone, as this relates directly to the main target.
If your main work is at target pace or faster, the adaptation of the physiological properties is done to exactly fulfill the needs for it.
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 10024
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by Dangerscouse » May 4th, 2024, 1:27 am

ahooton wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 5:08 pm
I have found that the intervals that keep you in the 1:45 pace or under hugely beneficial. My inexperienced view on it is training your body to be able to hold that pace for longer and longer until you can do it for 2k non stop.

I am still new to all this so might be wrong, I just feel that works for me.

Good luck with it mate.
Sometimes the most simple basic approach is still the best option as we can overthink it, so this is definitely not wrong.
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

robhely
1k Poster
Posts: 180
Joined: March 28th, 2023, 5:40 pm

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by robhely » May 4th, 2024, 1:59 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 4:55 am
Clearly you know yourself far better than me, but I'm thinking that five rows and four weights is a lot of training. Can you condense the weights to twice a week and all body workouts?
I've never tried 1500 intervals, I'll give them a go. It'll be hard to know how to pace them the first time, probably a lot slower than 6 x 500 @ 1:45.

I'm thinking of cutting back the volume of weights as the gym is taking up a lot of time and not allowing me to recover as much as I need to row optimally. I think I could do the same splits, but just throw in a few more sets on each of 2 days as I don't really want to go below 10 sets per muscle group.

Also, I'm not looking to gain more weight/bulk, which is what will happen if I keep going with the volume of weights I'm doing now. My ideal target is 74.5kg, with very low body fat.
M/53/179cm/74.8kg
started rowing late 2022

PBs
1k: 3:26.2
2k: 7:09.9
5k: 18:46.0
30min: 7,847m
10k: 38:57.0
60min: 15,060m
HM: 1:26:14.1

robhely
1k Poster
Posts: 180
Joined: March 28th, 2023, 5:40 pm

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by robhely » May 4th, 2024, 2:09 am

Sakly wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 5:31 am
Are these 4 strength sessions split sessions for specific muscle groups? If so, do you think you are so advanced in strength training, that this is a must?
I assume that this is not the case and you could easily go for 3 sessions a week, full body, tear down the volume of them as well, up the intensity and add a hard interval to one of them. Another hard interval on a non strength day and reducing the steady volume as needed for recovery. You will be sub 7 in no time.

For reference: 4x1k 3:30r was on point for me as a predictor of a 2k.
Currently my 4 strength sessions are split into 2 components:

Day 1: Chest, shoulders, triceps (27 sets total)
Day 2: Legs, biceps, back and core (27 sets total)

This week I tried to combine both of these in one day as well as a SS row and was utterly exhausted at the end of it. Not sustainable.

I think I could just do these splits once each per week and up the number of sets so each muscle group gets a minimum of 10 sets. Some do already, with 4 seperate exercises per muscle group. That would free up a lot more time for rowing. And avoid me having to do both on the same day, which, aside from taking way too many hours, would facilitate better recovery and specialisation.
M/53/179cm/74.8kg
started rowing late 2022

PBs
1k: 3:26.2
2k: 7:09.9
5k: 18:46.0
30min: 7,847m
10k: 38:57.0
60min: 15,060m
HM: 1:26:14.1

Sakly
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: January 13th, 2022, 10:49 am

Re: 1k pace for a 7min 2K?

Post by Sakly » May 4th, 2024, 3:40 am

robhely wrote:
May 4th, 2024, 2:09 am
Sakly wrote:
May 3rd, 2024, 5:31 am
Are these 4 strength sessions split sessions for specific muscle groups? If so, do you think you are so advanced in strength training, that this is a must?
I assume that this is not the case and you could easily go for 3 sessions a week, full body, tear down the volume of them as well, up the intensity and add a hard interval to one of them. Another hard interval on a non strength day and reducing the steady volume as needed for recovery. You will be sub 7 in no time.

For reference: 4x1k 3:30r was on point for me as a predictor of a 2k.
Currently my 4 strength sessions are split into 2 components:

Day 1: Chest, shoulders, triceps (27 sets total)
Day 2: Legs, biceps, back and core (27 sets total)

This week I tried to combine both of these in one day as well as a SS row and was utterly exhausted at the end of it. Not sustainable.

I think I could just do these splits once each per week and up the number of sets so each muscle group gets a minimum of 10 sets. Some do already, with 4 seperate exercises per muscle group. That would free up a lot more time for rowing. And avoid me having to do both on the same day, which, aside from taking way too many hours, would facilitate better recovery and specialisation.
You have not specified anything about intensity, so I have no idea of it. 27 sets could be fine at lower intensities, but on high intensity probably not. It all depends on your capabilities and strength you already built.
My approach looks quite different, as I tend to react better on more frequent stimulus and it gives me more room for rowing. I have two training sessions, full body, I alternate 3 times per week. So week 1 it's session A - B - A and next week B - A - B.
The pattern is mainly the same for both:
A:
Each 4 Sets every 3:30 - heavy squat variant, heavy pull exercise, heavy push exercise
Each 8 Sets every 70s for 25s - lower intensity pull, lower intensity push, weight selection in a way, that the last 2 or 3 sets are really on the edge.
5 rounds 25on/10off: alternating leg and core exercise, so summed up 10 25/10 cycles
5 rounds 25on/10off: alternating triceps/biceps exercise.
B:
Same like above, but exercise order changes:
Heavy lift variant, heavy push, heavy pull
Lower intensity push, pull
Different leg/core exercises
No biceps/triceps, another push/pull combo.

Exercises change every few weeks, bodyweight and machines mixed.
This gives me a hard training with high intensity, as well as a good long cvs stimulus.
Every week in one of the sessions the last two combos are exchanged with a kind of intervals on rower or skierg.
Typically I incorporated longer steadies (10k, 60min, HM) on non-gym days, summing up ca. 60km.
That was the volume I could cope with.
But I must say - since we incorporated the interval sessions on a weekly basis at the gym days, I got a good bit faster. Even doing the intervals at the end of the gym session.
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

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