Guidance for cyclist who's new to rowing/erg?

[blutow]

First post here, looking forward to being part of the community.

My wife and I recently completed a beginner sculling course, so we're just at the start of the learning curve on the water (humbling for sure).

We were introduced to the erg's at the club (all c2's) and decided to get an erg for the house. I am currently travelling/camped in Arkansas for a bike race next weekend and lucked out finding a basically new C2 RowErg on facebook nearby. So yeah, I got some interesting looks while doing a little rowing at the campground.

Anyways, I'm an avid cyclist with a good aerobic engine (mostly focused on 5+hour races). 55yr old, 6' tall, ~75kg. I'm hoping that rowing/erg can be good cross training (particularly in the off season) and help provide some core and upper body fitness. I'm a classic cyclist, all legs/butt with weak t-rex arms and upper body. I am also a numbers/wattage nerd, so naturally my first inclination is to see what I can do on the RowErg and try to hit some decent numbers. But I also don't want to hurt myself or get into bad habits, so hoping for a little guidance from folks who might have followed a similar path.

I got the erg today and spent enough time to get some feel for it. Set the drag at ~115 and and rowed for about 15 minutes. As expected, my arms/shoulders/back were feeling it pretty quick, but I could keep that in check by reducing the arm pull effort at the end of the stroke and basically just bringing the handle to my chest (pace didn't drop when I did this, so probably compensating more with legs). So, is that good practice for now or should I be focused on working my weaker arms and back to failure? Also, my current plan is to just go easy pace and up the volume for a month or so to work on form before starting to push things. Or would some harder intervals or mixing it up make sense? Any other tips/guidance is greatly appreciated, thanks.

[MPx]

Also, my current plan is to just go easy pace and up the volume for a month or so to work on form before starting to push things. Or would some harder intervals or mixing it up make sense?

Hi and welcome - great choice getting a C2 Erg ...

I'm no cyclist so others will be along soon closer to your path. But what you say here is very much the best plan for the early stages. Its so important to get the stroke mostly right before stressing your body too much which will tempt you to do something wrong to make the numbers look better quicker. With your background, your leg strength and engine will give a huge advantage. But as they are so developed, you will naturally overpower your core and arms and while they only add a fraction to the overall stroke power you need to give yourself time to get them on side and not set yourself up for injury. You need a strong core to transmit the leg force to the handle. Think in terms of a leg push rather than an arm pull.

You're obvs used to very long workouts so it shouldn't be a problem, but some (like me!) find grinding away for ages a bit boring so no harm and some benefits in mixing it up a bit with intervals of various sorts. None of them have to be done at 10/10ths at this stage. Enjoy the journey.

[Dangerscouse]

Also, my current plan is to just go easy pace and up the volume for a month or so to work on form before starting to push things. Or would some harder intervals or mixing it up make sense? Any other tips/guidance is greatly appreciated, thanks.

Welcome to the forum. I'd be careful in going too hard too soon for two reasons. Your ligaments & tendons, a bit more than your muscles will need to adjust and adapt to the strain and you could easily strain one of them without the initial preparation phase.

I'd also be careful of your ego dictating your decisions. Going from an expert to a novice in a different sport can seem easy enough but it can become a mental wrestling match as you feel like you should be better a lot sooner than is to be reasonably expected.

What i would also recommend is doing pilates or at least pilates style exercises. Plank variations will be ideal to start with, as there are quite a few options and they'll really work your core for a simple bodyweight exercise

[putridp]

Concept2's WOD (workout of the day), which can be easily programmed into the PM5 via the ergdata app are a nice way in for some varied shortish sessions, and you can decide what intensity you want to perform them at. Don't go crazy to start out, but rowing is generally an easy activity to recover from, even easier than cycling I would say, so long as form is good.

Always work on form, each and every time you ever row, on and off the water. Personally I find form most important during the long less intense rows, when a slight relaxation from strict form can fatigue my back excessively over the longer duration. For me there's some inevitable breakdown in form during high intensity short duration rows or interval sessions, but the shorter duration means it doesn't impact me much. Dark Horse rowing and Training Tall on YouTube are good resources, and Aram Training has some more advanced tips. Travis Gardner has some interesting videos about advanced rowing training strategies, including how it can vary from cycling.

Warm-up exercises are useful to train proper sequencing, such as arms only, then arms + body, then arms + body + half slide, then arms body full slide. And take care not to over-reach with too much leg compression and/or with the thoracic spine and shoulders. A DF of 115 sounds good to me. Your arms should quickly adapt and you shouldn't feel it there after a few sessions on the erg, try to use a loose hook grip, no death grip. The force curve can be useful to see how effective your form is.

Be wary of falling into the trap of comparing yourself with others. Even comparing yourself with your own prior achievements can be a pitfall. Height and lean weight play a huge role in performance potential, it's no coincidence that olympic rowers are well over 6' and around 100kg lean BW. Having said that, if you're a lean 75kg you may be lucky enough to be optimised to compete as a lightweight, and regardless, every veteran is envious of the 'newbie gains' that new-starters enjoy!

[blutow]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'd also be careful of your ego dictating your decisions.

Yeah, I think I'm good here. I always tell folks new to cycling that it's a process of months and often years (after you get the newbie gains). I got set up with ergdata and uploaded workouts to the logbook and strava. I did check my ranking on my first uploaded workout and it was way, way down the curve. And I'm fine with that (at least for now).

if you're a lean 75kg you may be lucky enough to be optimised to compete as a lightweight,

I don't think I'll ever see the low side of that cutoff (I think it's 72.5kg, right?). I'm actually more like 76-77 in the off season and shoot for 74-75kg for racing weight. Dropping another 1.5kg is probably a bridge too far unless they let you weigh in totally dehydrated. And I expect I might add a little upper body mass with the rowing, there isn't much there now.

[Tsnor]

Glad you and your wife are doing On The Water rowing ! Very fun.

Your sculling coach will teach you good sculling/rowing form. Long leg drive, late hip swing, strong finish. If the "beginner sculling course" was a short workshop instead of continuing training then see if you can find more coaching. It's not so critical if you are mainly going to erg, but if your goal is OTW rowing then you need a coach.

Erging for OTW rowers is about using the erg to reinforce your OTW rowing skills as well as offseason conditioning. It is very easy to harden good and bad habits into muscle memory on the erg. Some bad habits like using your arms early are bad on both erg and OTW. Unfortunately some bad rowing habits work GREAT on the erg, but kill you OTW. Example - accelerating going into the catch and bouncing off the foot plate gives you better splits on the erg, but works poorly OTW where a smooth constant speed recovery is best. Pulling the handle high up on the chest at the finish gives better erg splits, but would be bad with oars in your hands. You need to get coaching to avoid future problems unlearning techniques you've hardened.

Suggest you go light load on the erg and focus on form until you've done enough OTW to be comfortable with your form. If you can't get a coach then study you tube technique videos. Basic erging look at Concept2 Australia and Dark Horse Rowing. More specialized rowing/sculling videos can be found for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4jiOSEigN8 anything here https://www.youtube.com/@AramTraining/videos Learning technique just from video for OTW would be very hard. Best to you.

[blutow]

If the "beginner sculling course" was a short workshop instead of continuing training then see if you can find more coaching. It's not so critical if you are mainly going to erg, but if your goal is OTW rowing then you need a coach.

The intro course was just 4 sessions, but it was enough to decide we wanted to join the club (which includes coaching). As newbies, we're actually limited to only going out when a coach is on the water. Probably for safety as much as anything, but it's good to have someone providing guidance. The coach is sharing time across multiple boats, but it's definitely been helpful/required.

Thanks for the thoughts about erg vs. otw. Makes sense and I kind of figured bad habits could form on the erg since nothing too bad happens when you get sloppy. In my limited time OTW, the whole process seems to fall apart as I get tired and sloppy.

[jamesg]

My wife and I recently completed a beginner sculling course

Well done. I've sculled since I was ten, but wouldn't risk sculling in a double with the wife. Getting back aboard is no joke.

Instead we're on our third K2. Not the Olympic type, needless to say and not a C2 Canadian canoe. Very cheap, very wide and safe, go anywhere including the car roof, see where we're going and it's fun even in quite a big sea.

As with sculling, in a kayak what counts most is the paddles. A Carbon pair can cost as much as the boat, if it's glass fibre.

[putridp]

if you're a lean 75kg you may be lucky enough to be optimised to compete as a lightweight,

I don't think I'll ever see the low side of that cutoff (I think it's 72.5kg, right?). I'm actually more like 76-77 in the off season and shoot for 74-75kg for racing weight. Dropping another 1.5kg is probably a bridge too far unless they let you weigh in totally dehydrated. And I expect I might add a little upper body mass with the rowing, there isn't much there now.

The cutoff for Concept2 indoor rowing is 75kg, if you're interested in competing off-the-water.

[blutow]

I've sculled since I was ten, but wouldn't risk sculling in a double with the wife.

We're each in our own single, haven't even discussed the possibility of doubling up. Probably would be a bad idea, at least until we get some skills. We actually have a tandem bike that we'll ride sometimes, but only in full sight-seeing mode.

The cutoff for Concept2 indoor rowing is 75kg, if you're interested in competing off-the-water.

Wow, that's a weight I can hit. I haven't thought much about competition, but the possibility is in the back of my mind. Seeing some of the times for folks my age, seems like it might need to be more than an off-season "side job" to reach respectable times. Never thought I'd be a lightweight in anything, I'm considered big-ish for a cyclist.

I did my first 5k on the erg today after some time on the water this morning. Really focused on form and deliberate/slow stroke (under 20 s/m until the last 500). The first few splits where crazy slow and then I found a good groove cutting about 15" off my 500 pace and feeling almost easier. I couldn't resist pushing a bit for the last 500, got sloppy and not much faster than my middle splits. I'm trying to live by my old cycling mantra - "slow is smooth, smooth is fast".

I'm setting a goal of sub 20' for 5k by the end of the year, but honestly not sure if that's a reach or not. I definitely couldn't do it today. The wattage drop compared to cycling is huge. More than 50% drop for me at this point, hoping I can narrow that significantly. I just plan to keep at it and see what happens. All set up on ergdata and logbook, very easy and love the metrics.

[flatbread]

ymmv, but maybe don't worry about watts/stroke for a couple of years. when I got into erging from cycling, my legs overpowered my trunk -- I had a few rounds of rib stress problems from 2020-22. a couple of years of weight training have put 10kilos on me, but I'm still being cautious right now about how hard I'm pulling. I'm looking at HR more than watt/stroke, and using a higher spm. If I'm patient, which for me is a big if, hopefully I can build back to where I was with watts/stroke over the next year or so, and not put too much load into my ribs.

cyclist heart on the erg, good. cyclist bone density, maybe not so much.

[H2O]

by reducing the arm pull effort at the end of the stroke and basically just bringing the handle to my chest (pace didn't drop when I did this, so probably compensating more with legs). So, is that good practice for now

Yes, that is textbook rowing.

As an aside, from my own experience, long duration cycling is of very little value for rowing. During covid I stopped working out for about 2 years and accordingly was completely unfit. Then I started rowing again and after some time hit a milestone (on the one hour row) that indicated some degree of fitness. Then I became ambitious and also started bike rides (3-5 hours, lots of steep climbing on a mountain bike) in the expectation that that would lead to substantial further improvement. But actually nothing at all happened, even on the one hour row.
It was the same in my younger days where I mixed long rides with rowing and always felt that the riding only makes me tired but does not contribute to the rowing.

Just think about it: rowing durations 7-90 minutes, riding 3-5 hours is not very comparable.
I can attest to the fact that riding hits the legs much harder than rowing, but I am unable to transfer this to the ergo.

Conversely rowing contributes to riding by lowering the heart rate. When I now ride (not very fit on the bike but also not unfit), my legs are constantly slightly hurting but the heart rate is fairly low, even on climbs. I actually have to stand up to drive the heart rate up.

The wattage drop compared to cycling is huge. More than 50% drop for me at this point.

Conventional wisdom is that fit riders can output 30% more Watts on the bike over the hour than similarly fit rowers on the ergo.

[flatbread]

Conventional wisdom is that fit riders can output 30% more Watts on the bike over the hour than similarly fit rowers on the ergo.

That's about right -- in 2021 I had 360w for an hour at 75 kg, and my 60min test on the erg was 235w. Not nearly as fit on the erg, but I think that 70% number starts to scale down after you go over 5k on the erg. The power-duration curve has a little more slope on the erg.

[milansanremo]

First post here, looking forward to being part of the community.

My wife and I recently completed a beginner sculling course, so we're just at the start of the learning curve on the water (humbling for sure).

We were introduced to the erg's at the club (all c2's) and decided to get an erg for the house. I am currently travelling/camped in Arkansas for a bike race next weekend and lucked out finding a basically new C2 RowErg on facebook nearby. So yeah, I got some interesting looks while doing a little rowing at the campground

Anyways, I'm an avid cyclist with a good aerobic engine (mostly focused on 5+hour races). 55yr old, 6' tall, ~75kg. I'm hoping that rowing/erg can be good cross training (particularly in the off season) and help provide some core and upper body fitness. I'm a classic cyclist, all legs/butt with weak t-rex arms and upper body. I am also a numbers/wattage nerd, so naturally my first inclination is to see what I can do on the RowErg and try to hit some decent numbers. But I also don't want to hurt myself or get into bad habits, so hoping for a little guidance from folks who might have followed a similar path.

I got the erg today and spent enough time to get some feel for it. Set the drag at ~115 and and rowed for about 15 minutes. As expected, my arms/shoulders/back were feeling it pretty quick, but I could keep that in check by reducing the arm pull effort at the end of the stroke and basically just bringing the handle to my chest (pace didn't drop when I did this, so probably compensating more with legs). So, is that good practice for now or should I be focused on working my weaker arms and back to failure? Also, my current plan is to just go easy pace and up the volume for a month or so to work on form before starting to push things. Or would some harder intervals or mixing it up make sense? Any other tips/guidance is greatly appreciated, thanks.

I urge you to read all of my posts and responses ..that is...if you want to Make this serious ...I do.
I was a member of the US team when (Greg LeMond) became the 1st American to become World Champion on the road in1983 in Alterhein Switzerland.
The guys on this forum have been very generous with their advice and I would not be where I am without them. Ask questions if you need advice..
Best of Luck
John

[flatbread]

First post here, looking forward to being part of the community.

My wife and I recently completed a beginner sculling course, so we're just at the start of the learning curve on the water (humbling for sure).

We were introduced to the erg's at the club (all c2's) and decided to get an erg for the house. I am currently travelling/camped in Arkansas for a bike race next weekend and lucked out finding a basically new C2 RowErg on facebook nearby. So yeah, I got some interesting looks while doing a little rowing at the campground

Anyways, I'm an avid cyclist with a good aerobic engine (mostly focused on 5+hour races). 55yr old, 6' tall, ~75kg. I'm hoping that rowing/erg can be good cross training (particularly in the off season) and help provide some core and upper body fitness. I'm a classic cyclist, all legs/butt with weak t-rex arms and upper body. I am also a numbers/wattage nerd, so naturally my first inclination is to see what I can do on the RowErg and try to hit some decent numbers. But I also don't want to hurt myself or get into bad habits, so hoping for a little guidance from folks who might have followed a similar path.

I got the erg today and spent enough time to get some feel for it. Set the drag at ~115 and and rowed for about 15 minutes. As expected, my arms/shoulders/back were feeling it pretty quick, but I could keep that in check by reducing the arm pull effort at the end of the stroke and basically just bringing the handle to my chest (pace didn't drop when I did this, so probably compensating more with legs). So, is that good practice for now or should I be focused on working my weaker arms and back to failure? Also, my current plan is to just go easy pace and up the volume for a month or so to work on form before starting to push things. Or would some harder intervals or mixing it up make sense? Any other tips/guidance is greatly appreciated, thanks.

I urge you to read all of my posts and responses ..that is...if you want to Make this serious ...I do.
I was a member of the US team when (Greg LeMond) became the 1st American to become World Champion on the road in1983 in Alterhein Switzerland.
The guys on this forum have been very generous with their advice and I would not be where I am without them. Ask questions if you need advice..
Best of Luck
John

Good to see you here J. It's been a while since the Outspokin vs CM days. Good times.

Robert