Problems with rowing and can't pinpoint the cause yet...

[Shrogran]

Hello dear all,

I have been rowing for a year now on my C2 Model D with a PM3. I started using it as a warmup tool and as a cardio tool for my regular workout which is powerlifting, some olympic lifting and strongman training.
I enjoy it a LOT and i can certainly say it has helped me get more fit. Up till a few weeks ago i have been improving very nicely but lately i have been running into some strange problems. Before i jump into that, some stats about me.
44 years old, male, 100kg, 183cm. I am not explosive, but a real diesel. Pretty strong. Not very flexable, stamina building up by rowing. Was nearly non-existent before.
As a general rule, i row all kinds of distances (whatever i feel like that day).
I have tried the DF and damper settings in the first few months and what suited me best is these:
- short rows (everything up to 5K): damper 8, DF will be around 165; stroke rate somewhere around 27 rising to 30 when sprinting to the finish
- long rows (5k to HM); damper 6, DF will be around 130; stroke rate around 24-26, rising to whatever i still can muster to the finish
I have seen that my numbers on DF and damper are rather high, but i have been talking to other rowers about it and i have been told that for a guy of my size and strength it is not out of the ordinary.
I have a dual monitor setup: Rowpro will be on the left monitor, right monitor will show movies or virtual cycling videos for distraction on longer rows.
Some of my 'records' to give you an idea of my current fitness level
- 500m: 1.44.3 (there is not one explosive fiber in my body =)
- 2K: 7:45.7
- 5K: 20:13.9
- 10k: 41.:41.6
- an interval i like to do: 250 meters at 1:55, 250 sloooow paddling, repeat for 1250 meters, last 3 intervals 250 meters at 1:50.
As you can see, no spectacular times, but i am very happy with them and up till now, i have been improving nicely and steadily.
In general i will row around 60k a month.
My technique: not sure, hard to judge yourself. I have heard its okay, i could relax more and i start to pull with my arms too quickly. Working on it. I could also improve legdrive. I have a very strong back, so its natural for me to rely on that when i feel the drive could have been better. Working on that too.

Since about 3 weeks, i have been quitting during rows, even when i was on course for a new personal best. And not just a few rows. Almost every single on of them. I just quit 2 rows today. Somehow i start to feel something does is not right. I dont feel comfortable on the seat anymore, i start losing form, cant relax anymore, breathing gets out of synch etc. As a former powerlifter, i know about grinding things out. I dont like to quit. But all of a sudden, i will put the handle down and be frustrated that i 'quit again'. This is not something that has sneaked up on me. I went from rowing very well and steadily one day to the 'new' style the next.
I suspect it has to do with my breathing. I am a bad natural breather and very good at hyperventilating. In powerlifting and olympic lifting you learn how to hold your breath to apply pressure in your body. I have noticed that at the start of the drive i will do a very quick inhale, then hold it until i am near the end of the finish, then exhale hardly. When i get tired, i also use the double breath technique in a similar fashion.
The only thing that appears NOT to be affected is my interval. I can row that one like an atomic clock. Probably because its just short and very focussed.
I have been trying to get better at this by rowing slowly and focus on inhale on a relaxed recovery, exhale on the drive. It only works for a few minutes and then i will get totally out of synch. Falling back to the old method i will be able to finish the then rather poor row. Last few days i have felt a reluctance to get back on the rower as i am getting frustrated with this. I had to stay VERY calm last week when i quit a 7K row at 6000 meters while being on course for a PB... I must solve this quickly as it is getting in my head now.

So. How do i go from here? How can i be sure it is my breathing? Is this maybe another common problem i am not aware about? Am i maybe trying too hard, or not nearly hard enough?
If it is breathing: what are good exercises to get better at this? Like i am doing already (slow rows focussed on breathing) and keep at it?
Will posting a video of me rowing help? Like a few seconds where i am just rowing at the start and later on when the problems start??

If anyone has some wisdom to share, i will be most grateful!
Thanks for your time and happy rowing everyone!

[jamesg]

What can you do at rating 20 on low drag?

[Shrogran]

I do not know. I have tried rowing very slow and i sucked at that. Using low drag i kinda tend to burn out very quickly. Havent tried both combined yet.
As i am still a newb: what would that info tell me? What should the result for my bodytype and fitness level be?
I can sure give it a try tomorrow! Any recommendation on what kind of row i should try with low drag and stroke rate 20?

[jamesg]

Relaxing and with an arms, then swing, then legs recovery sequence you should get to 200W at 20 without difficulty.

When problems occur, the first guess is always technique; it's simple but obligatory.

The Watt/Rating ratio is the work in each stroke. At your age and size 10 is easy; even I could do that at 63, but we have to use our length, because the erg measures work, and work is Length x Force. Force alone is not enough. Full length and slow rowing require low drag.

This is what rowing looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4

[hjs]

The problem is very likely ou going for pb s every time. Training is not racing, if you race every training you soon will hi a wall. Simply back off in pace, don,t go for pbs s bit just solid rows, 3/5 seconds above pb pace at least. Easier rows slower even. Sometimes go for a pb attempt, but limit those times.
If you go for a pb and don,t feel the urge of being close to a handle down you are not really trying. If you do, you go just hard enough.
Don,t think about breathing, just do, during a hard row, breathing twice is normal, during the drive keeping your breath is also normal.
In short back off, start training and stop racing your sessions.

[jamesg]

A 30 minute pull working on technique and length, without high intensity, should tell you a lot. HR in the UT2 and 1 range.

[Shrogran]

Jamesg:
Thanks for the explanation. I will give it a go tomorrow and let you know.

Hjs:
I am VERY relieved to hear holding breath during drive is not uncommon! Cause that feels so natural to me. Trying to alter it made things worse, at least it felt like it.
Regarding trying to hard: i am certainly guilty about that. I have backed down last two weeks. But even rowing at speeds i should be able to keep up with ease did not make a difference at all. I tried a 30 min row three days ago shooting for 6k while i can do around 7300m. I still hit the same 'quit now' wall halfway the duration.
But it can very well be that i am trying too hard, too focussed on numbers.
I would suspect a more gradual decline in performance then, but its a known weakness.
I will try to see if i can focus on finishing the rows next couple of weeks instead of results.

[Bob S.]

A DF of 165 is really high for anything longer than a 500m and it is even high for that. As James said, relaxing on the recovery is an important part of it. The drive is quick and hard with emphasis on the legs, but the recovery should be slow, easy and relaxed - sneak up on the catch. You said that you were aware of the importance of the legs/back/arms sequence, but it is hard for anyone to tell if he is implementing it properly without checking of a video of the action. It is not necessary to send it in for a critique. You would be able to see for yourself if you elbows are starting to bend before your legs are straight. And of course the reverse on the recovery. Your hands should be out and away, past your knees, before your knees start to come up.

It might help to row with the foot straps undone. When you row without the straps, improper sequencing can have the result of you falling to the back, unless you start out at very low stroke rates to get a feel for it.

A steady improvement, followed by a leveling off, suggests that you have plateaued, which is typical of the first few months of rowing. The handle-down problem might be a result of discouragement over the fact that you are no longer improving as much. A haphazard program, based on the whim of the day, isn't necessarily bad, but following a regular plan could provide more incentive. A couple of these are the Pete Plan and the UK Interactive Programme (sic). You can find these by Googling.
Good luck on your training. Be sure to exercise patience and persistence.

Re the breathing: Timing your breathing while rowing is a tricky thing, because the tendency is to synchronize it with the stroke rate, which can very a lot, and your natural breath rate will tend to vary with the amount of effort you are putting out. The chance of these variations matching is remote. My own experience is that I am taking one breath a stroke at low rates and light effort and two for intense pieces. It is sort of automatic unless I think about it - which is likely to screw it up. Xeno Mueller, rowing coach and Olympic gold medal sculler, advocates breathing in on the drive. This is the complete opposite of weight lifting where it is common to exhale during the lift. For rowing however, it makes sense, since you start drive with the chest somewhat compressed and open it up as you move back. I tried that technique, too many years of old habits blocked the attempt.

Bob S.

[T_M]

I'm inclined to agree with HJS. As a former PLer myself (kind of think of myself as a recovering PLer now), having max effort days every two or three training days was the norm. I tend to bring that mentality to the erg. In the last several weeks I've been setting the PM on "just row" then covering it with a sock. The only feedback I allow myself is from my heart rate monitor (Polar FT4) and an occasional glance at the clock on the wall at the gym to see how close I am to my 30, 40, or 60 minute goal. I try to keep my HR within UT1 limits as best I can, rate low between 19 and 21 and concentrate on my drive length and overall technique (music and sports on tv helps the time go by). When I think I'm close to my time goal, I pull the sock off and if I'm a little early, I tend to rate up to shave a few tenths off my /500m avg.... which speaks to that competitive drive that threatened burn out when I first started back on the erg about 5 months ago. Hope that helps...and good luck

[Cyclingman1]

some stats about me.
44 years old, male, 100kg, 183cm. I am not explosive, but a real diesel. Pretty strong.

Some of my 'records'
- 500m: 1.44.3 (there is not one explosive fiber in my body =)
- 2K: 7:45.7
- 5K: 20:13.9
- 10k: 41.:41.6

I'll be glad to share some wisdom with you, but you have to be ready for it.

In the first place given your age and size and having been rowing for a year around 60km a month, your times are very pedestrian. For example, I started rowing just before turning 66 and within 100 days did 6:40.7 for 2K. That was on around 16km a week.

So, I have to say that you really are not very fit, relatively speaking. Given your 1:44.3 for 500m, there is no doubt that your rowing technique is not good. You must not be compressing well at the catch and exploding with your legs driving off the foot plate on your toes. The legs and arms are locked to transfer all of the leg power to the handle. As the legs are about 3/4 straight, then the back and arms kick in. You should be at least in the 1:37 range.

Quitting on rows is a sign of a lack of fitness and/or general fatigue for the pace and distance selected. I have no idea what not being a "natural" breather means. I've never thought about it. I just do it. I certainly do NOT double breathe.

Rowing below record pace is a good way of having to stop. To set records, row at record pace for 2/3 distance and pick the pace up for last 1/3 if you have the energy.

Also, maybe there is a reason for fatigue: lack of iron, medicine side effects, lung function, etc, etc.

[Shrogran]

Bob S.
Thanks for the reply.
I know Df 165 is high. I have seen the numbers of others online. I have tried opening the damper more, but then i lose that feeling of resistance i need to work against. Does that make sense or ia that the building of bad habit?
The relax on the recovery has my attention. i am certain i can improve in that area.
Rowing without straps: i have tried that twice. Both times i wasnt able to row well at all. I had trouble staying on thw footrest aftee the drive. I get launched. Does that indicate something wrong in my sequence?
Rowing plan: for now i row the way i feel and what i perform after it. on deadlift day i row short distance. On benchday i can go fir 10k as benchday is easy for me. On squatday i tend to do short distance or inteeval.
Breathing: i understand that it is very tricky. When i focus on it, i fail and go nuts. Strange to hear about the Xylo style... Sounds almost like the way i breath on intensive rows and i thought that was maybe the problem !

[Shrogran]

T_m:
Great way to get rid of competetive incentive. I will give that a shot.

Cyclingman1
I said myself that my times were not spectacular. I am very happy with them as i had no stamina at all when i started rowing. I just stated them to give an idea of my current level. But no offence taken. I intend to get a lot better.
When i have people look at my form i hear i am overcompressing a bit. But it can very well be that my drive is not efficient.
When i get of the rower, i am tired in the lungs. Not in the legs or back. At least not in the same degree. Not by a long shot.

[Cyclingman1]

I don't want to come across as too harsh regarding your times. You said you were happy with them. I just want to provide some perspective. Like I said, the times are very so-so given your age and size. I suspect that you have perhaps never engaged in a serious aerobic activity like running or cycling for any sustained amount of time. Your aerobic functioning is not good. As you say your lungs hurt. That is a sign of something. When I row hard or even too hard, yes, I'm fatigued, but my lungs do not hurt, per se. Maybe you are just that out of shape or you have an issue. Regardless you need to slow down and get things under control.

[Bob S.]

Bob S.
Thanks for the reply.
I know Df 165 is high. I have seen the numbers of others online. I have tried opening the damper more, but then i lose that feeling of resistance i need to work against. Does that make sense or ia that the building of bad habit?
The relax on the recovery has my attention. i am certain i can improve in that area.
Rowing without straps: i have tried that twice. Both times i wasnt able to row well at all. I had trouble staying on thw footrest aftee the drive. I get launched. Does that indicate something wrong in my sequence?
Rowing plan: for now i row the way i feel and what i perform after it. on deadlift day i row short distance. On benchday i can go fir 10k as benchday is easy for me. On squatday i tend to do short distance or inteeval.
Breathing: i understand that it is very tricky. When i focus on it, i fail and go nuts. Strange to hear about the Xylo style... Sounds almost like the way i breath on intensive rows and i thought that was maybe the problem !

DF: http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... etting-101

Note the section on what drag factor is not. This is where the indoor rowing is not at all like weight lifting. Even at the highest drag factor, you can always make the wheel spin even with a light pull. Obviously, that is not the case in lifting. The rowing machine does not determine the resistance - you do. If the resistance seems to light, it is because you are not putting in enough effort at the start of the drive. Some describe it as being explosive, sort of like leaping up as high as you can from a squat. What a high drag does is slow down the wheel more rapidly and that requires a high stroke rate so that it doesn't have the time to slow down too much.

If you have trouble with rowing without straps, it is quite likely that your sequence is off. The legs have do the most work getting the wheel moving, the arms finish it off, with the back bridging the other the movements. If you use both your arms and the legs at the same time, the relatively weak arm muscles have to compete with the much more powerful leg muscles. The legs do something like about 70% of the work of the drive. The leg much also produces the backward momentum of your body that makes you tend to fall off to the back. The arm pull, if done correctly, counteracts that momentum and the body comes to a stop. On the recovery the forward motion of the body is helped by the tension of the bungee and the slight downward slope of slide. The pressure of your heels in the heel cups is enough to make up any difference. At a low stroke, say up to 20spm, there should be no problem with rowing strapless. With a little practice, the mid-20s are OK. Getting up to 30 and over takes a lot more practice and, for sprints well over 30, form tends to get sloppy and it is best to have the straps on.

Your rowing plan seems reasonable enough, since you are coordinating your rowing with the weight lifting.

Another item to consider is the amount of work that you do for each stroke. If you divide the average watts by the stroke rate, you get the average amount of work done per stroke in watt-minutes (W'). For example, 200w (about 2:00/500m pace) at a stroke rate of 20spm would be 10W'/stroke. For some one your age, size, and condition, that should be an easy goal. The top powerhouses get up to as high at 16, but 12W'/stroke is pretty good - if it can be maintained at higher rates. A 10W'/stroke at 30spm would be 300W, a pace of about 1:45 or a 7:00 2k. For time trials or races, a somewhat higher stroke would be in order.

Bob S.

[Edward4492]

Lots of rowers (including some good ones) go through the "HD" (handle down) phase. You mentioned it happened when you were on pace for a PR. I went through this myself when I was with-in a second or two of breaking seven minutes. I got through it by backing way off and focusing on just completing the row at a distance I knew was easy. First 8 minutes, then 7:30, 7:15, etc. The day I finally hit my number I had that "HD" feeling and just decided to hang on and go until I blew. And I made it. Had the same feeling when I was in over my head at a crossfit comp and had to row after I was smoked from an earlier work out. Just kept backing off the pace until I could finish and had a decent result. Every rower feels like quitting during a race or PR run. It's normal.

As mentioned above, don't go for PR's all the time; it will end poorly. Pick a time/distance that psychologically you know is manageable and just do it. If it is a fitness thing you'll know, just keep going at a reduced pace until you finish. Next time (in a few WEEKS!), start at the same pace and see how it goes. And of course, get medical clearance. Wear a HR monitor, make sure your HR is rising slowly to match your effort, nothing crazy going on.

I would have to assume power lifters go through the same thing? The first time you go for six plates, 315 lbs, on a bench press perhaps? I watched a coach sneak some 1 1/4 plates in between the stack to get one of his lifters over the hump. For me in crossfit it was the 30" box jump. These things are intimidating. I have the shin scars to show for it. When finally hit one I did ten in a row to break the mental barrier.

There's a physical component to be sure, and the high rate indicates there could be some technique to be perfected. Listen to the guys that post here; they're very good. Good Luck!