Help!
I'm actually a masters aged, competitive dragon boat paddler, not a rower. But, our club's coaches want to see how fit we are and so we all must turn in ERG times for 250m and 500m in just five weeks from now.
Our typical DB races are 200m, 500m, 1000m and sometimes 2000m. Most common is the 500m.
I'm worried because at 5'3", I'm not built for a rowing ERG. So, how can I get the most out of it given my size, weight, etc.?
I'm 5'3", weigh 136, am a 61-yr old female paddling in what we call the "grand masters" age group. Shorter paddlers are seated in the front or back two or three benches. Short is not necessarily bad on a DB.
Today, I did a practice 250m ERG, with drag set at 115, in 59:3. But, I was pretty disappointed in that time and think I can do much better.
My 500m ERG result was 2:07.06 with drag set at 115.
I would like to see these results at the end of May, 2009 ...
250m at :57 or better
500m at 2:04 or better
What should I do to get there? Are these realistic goals, even?
No rowing coach as ever helped me with my technique and I haven't spent a lot of time on an ERG, either. I paddle DB with my team three-times a week, workout with a personal trainer twice/week, and am in overall good shape.
After the 250m ERG trial test today, I felt winded but my muscles weren't really tired. My butt kept sliding on the seat as it moved forward and back which bothered me, too.
Please give me some pointers and help me understand how I can best take advantage of the height, strength, age variables that I have.
Thanks! I really want to make our "A" team this year!
Dragon boat racer seeks ERG help re:upcoming time trials
Your erg times are very good: around 200W for a 60-62 kg lady is impressive so it won't be easy to go a lot faster.
The fact that you felt winded but without muscle fatigue probably means you're not using your legs as much as you could - even after only 250m (30-40 strokes) your quads should make themselves felt. So a path might be to row at a lower rating for a few days, but making sure you use your full leg extension: shins vertical at the catch, but no hurry to get there.
Leg use is of course the major difference between canoeing, whether C, K or indeed Dragon, and sculling with a sliding seat, and this leads to ratings being less than half a canoeists levels; we can put more force into the stroke, and it's far longer. From your times, it seems your paddling will have given you more than enough core and upper body strength to transmit the leg thrust to the handle. Have fun.
The fact that you felt winded but without muscle fatigue probably means you're not using your legs as much as you could - even after only 250m (30-40 strokes) your quads should make themselves felt. So a path might be to row at a lower rating for a few days, but making sure you use your full leg extension: shins vertical at the catch, but no hurry to get there.
Leg use is of course the major difference between canoeing, whether C, K or indeed Dragon, and sculling with a sliding seat, and this leads to ratings being less than half a canoeists levels; we can put more force into the stroke, and it's far longer. From your times, it seems your paddling will have given you more than enough core and upper body strength to transmit the leg thrust to the handle. Have fun.
08-1940, 179cm, 75kg post-op (3 bp).
Re: Dragon boat racer seeks ERG help re:upcoming time trials
I really can't understand why your coach chose the rowing ergometer to use as a fitness measure. Fitness certainly helps to get good erg scores, but technique can make a very large difference, especially the leg drive. The real power in rowing, OTW or OTE, comes from the quads - the most powerful muscles in the average human body. As far as I can tell, in paddling, whether it is in canoeing, kayaking, outrigger canoeing, or dragon boat paddling, the only exercise the quads get is some isometric work in bracing the body. At one time, I belonged to a club that had both paddling (canoes and kayaks) and rowing. One of the kayakers had very little use of his legs, but had a very powerful upper body. He was one of the top competitors in the kayak racing, but would not have been able to produce much of an erg score.jsbjazz wrote:Help!
I'm actually a masters aged, competitive dragon boat paddler, not a rower. But, our club's coaches want to see how fit we are and so we all must turn in ERG times for 250m and 500m in just five weeks from now.
Our typical DB races are 200m, 500m, 1000m and sometimes 2000m. Most common is the 500m.
There is a way to use the erg for paddlers, an accessory that allows you to spin the wheel using a handle similar to a canoe or kayak paddle, with the appropriate movement and with the legs just held straight for bracing.
Since your coach is not likely to be persuaded to go to the trouble to get the paddle accessory, it would be best to try to find a rowing club where you can get advice on your technique to make sure that you are getting the most out of your legs. The drive should be hard and long (long in distance - not time), but the recovery should be slow and relaxed - very different from paddling. Also the stroke rate in rowing is far, far less that that of paddling. That is mainly because a rowing stroke is much longer than a paddle stroke. What is a typical paddle rate? 60spm and up? A rowing stroke rate of 40spm is considered quite high and very few rowers get to that high a rate — but for short pieces, like the 500m and for short rowers it is not unreasonable to get to as high as 50spm. Pacing is another problem. For most people, an all-out, adrenalin-charged effort isn't good for much more than 30-40 seconds, so even a 250m would be best done at just under such an all out pace. A 500m meter definitelyrequires an even, sub-all-out pace for best results.
Actually, how long do the 2000m dragon boat races take? If the coaches want paddlers who are fit enough to handle that distance, they should be doing erg tests that would take a comparable amount of time.
As James said, your times are impressive, 200 watts is a good power level. The key at this point is getting the most efficiency out of that power and that means getting the most out of your legs. Don't even start to bend you arms until your legs have completed their part of the drive.
Bob S.
How to get more thrust from my quads
Thank you so much for your encouraging reply. I appreciated it very much. It's good to have the feedback.
From what you say, technique is certainly where I need to focus attention. From what you suggest, I need to use my legs more. But, I'm not sure how to get more power when I push back. How do I transmit leg thrust to the handle better?
It seems that my legs don't create very much power compared to my arms. back and core. I don't have a sense that they contribute much power, actually ... I sure don't feel it!! I must be doing something wrong. Either that, or, my legs are just too short to be usable for back-thrust/push -off on an ERG. What do you think?
Is it reasonable to assume that, all other factors being equal, a shorter person will have slower times on an ERG than a taller one? If our coach compared height with ERG results from among our female paddlers, would she see that ERG times for her short women would generally be slower than those for her taller ones?
BTW, I am in an age category which begins at 50. So, I have to beat out women who are 10-11 years younger than I am! I need al lthe extra seconds, or tenths of seconds, I can find in me!
One last question regarding training and preparation for a May 29 ERG time trial ... considering that I must paddle with the team 3x weekly for an hour, plus time for weights and cardio in the gym, what would you suggest for ERG practice sessions? How often? What distances? Rate?
Again, many thanks to The Forum for help!
From what you say, technique is certainly where I need to focus attention. From what you suggest, I need to use my legs more. But, I'm not sure how to get more power when I push back. How do I transmit leg thrust to the handle better?
It seems that my legs don't create very much power compared to my arms. back and core. I don't have a sense that they contribute much power, actually ... I sure don't feel it!! I must be doing something wrong. Either that, or, my legs are just too short to be usable for back-thrust/push -off on an ERG. What do you think?
Is it reasonable to assume that, all other factors being equal, a shorter person will have slower times on an ERG than a taller one? If our coach compared height with ERG results from among our female paddlers, would she see that ERG times for her short women would generally be slower than those for her taller ones?
BTW, I am in an age category which begins at 50. So, I have to beat out women who are 10-11 years younger than I am! I need al lthe extra seconds, or tenths of seconds, I can find in me!
One last question regarding training and preparation for a May 29 ERG time trial ... considering that I must paddle with the team 3x weekly for an hour, plus time for weights and cardio in the gym, what would you suggest for ERG practice sessions? How often? What distances? Rate?
Again, many thanks to The Forum for help!
Janna
DB coach using ERG scores to assess fitness level
Our DB club coaches are using the ERG as a measurement of fitness conditioning. Perhaps I am the one putting too much emphasis on time results - being competitive and wanting to get to the finish line first!
At the end of May, the ERG test will start with HR measurement followed by a 250m ERG distance. Then, another HR measurement. Then, a long rest before another HR measurement prior to a 500m ERG time, with splits recorded. Then, HR after plus a follow-up HR in something like 5 mins more to assess recovery time. Not sure of precise times for HR measurement at the moment.
You are right ... ERG does not assess ability to paddle a DB. It is , though, supposed to be a way to measure athletic fitness.
A 250m DB race time my team is about 0:58.
A 500m DB race is about 2:15.
A 1000m DB race is about 5 min.
A 2000m DB race is about 12 min. or so.
We regularly paddle 6-10 min "long runs" during practice.
The typical DB festival will feature ONLY the 500m distance. Sometimes, there will be a 1000m.
Our team's rate is about 60 strokes/minute avg during a race, with faster rate bursts at start and finish segments.
Your comments were extremely helpful. Thanks, again!!
At the end of May, the ERG test will start with HR measurement followed by a 250m ERG distance. Then, another HR measurement. Then, a long rest before another HR measurement prior to a 500m ERG time, with splits recorded. Then, HR after plus a follow-up HR in something like 5 mins more to assess recovery time. Not sure of precise times for HR measurement at the moment.
You are right ... ERG does not assess ability to paddle a DB. It is , though, supposed to be a way to measure athletic fitness.
A 250m DB race time my team is about 0:58.
A 500m DB race is about 2:15.
A 1000m DB race is about 5 min.
A 2000m DB race is about 12 min. or so.
We regularly paddle 6-10 min "long runs" during practice.
The typical DB festival will feature ONLY the 500m distance. Sometimes, there will be a 1000m.
Our team's rate is about 60 strokes/minute avg during a race, with faster rate bursts at start and finish segments.
Your comments were extremely helpful. Thanks, again!!
Janna
Paddling ERG is not so great.
We have a paddling ERG and rowing ERG in our boathouse. The paddling ERG just doesn't offer the same "feel" as the real thing. It is rather awkward and most everyone in the club seems to agree.
The rowing ERG was chosen for testing instead.
Most everyone has ready access to a rowing ERG at their own health clubs where they can pratice. Paddling ERGs aren't common and with only one paddling ERG in our boathouse to serve a large membership, it just isn't enough.
Thus, time-trials are on the rowing ERG. It will be just ONE measurement. We also get on-water video assessement in a DB of stroke technique, on-water 250m time trial in an outrigger canoe, plus other factors considered into the selection equation.
The rowing ERG was chosen for testing instead.
Most everyone has ready access to a rowing ERG at their own health clubs where they can pratice. Paddling ERGs aren't common and with only one paddling ERG in our boathouse to serve a large membership, it just isn't enough.
Thus, time-trials are on the rowing ERG. It will be just ONE measurement. We also get on-water video assessement in a DB of stroke technique, on-water 250m time trial in an outrigger canoe, plus other factors considered into the selection equation.
Janna
Janna,
Since your profile says Portland, I figured that there would be plenty of rowing clubs there. Sure enough, a G-search brought up a lot of information, including a women's rowing club. Here is one all inclusive site:
http://www.aracnet.com/~aebigelo/portland.html
Most rowing clubs will welcome people asking advice.
Another alternative is to post a video so that the members of this and the U.K. C2 forums can check out your technique, but it is best to get the information first hand from a knowledgeable rowing coach who can watch you in person.
Bob S.
Since your profile says Portland, I figured that there would be plenty of rowing clubs there. Sure enough, a G-search brought up a lot of information, including a women's rowing club. Here is one all inclusive site:
http://www.aracnet.com/~aebigelo/portland.html
Most rowing clubs will welcome people asking advice.
Another alternative is to post a video so that the members of this and the U.K. C2 forums can check out your technique, but it is best to get the information first hand from a knowledgeable rowing coach who can watch you in person.
Bob S.
Portland rowing clubs
Thanks for suggestion to contact local rowing club. I will follow your advice and see what I can find. Yes, there are lots of rowing clubs here and no doubt someone would be willing to assist me. Much thanks, again.
Janna
How do I transmit leg thrust to the handle better?
Well that's a key problem for scullers and oarsmen. It's done by bracing the back, and I think you'll be good at that. The feel is something like lifting a weight off the floor with the back in a strong posture and legs bent.
However the force you apply is only half the equation; the other half is length of stroke, because what the erg measures is work done, which = length x force. In practical terms you'll need to stretch for the catch, albeit without getting into a weak position, and make sure the finish is solid.
The rowing action and the erg in particular tend to privilege height; so for you it will be important to use all the length you can. As the pieces are short try a relatively high drag, say 3 or 4, at a high rating; but not at the expense of length.
Some experiments with drag can help. Finding the right level is important in transmitting maximum work to the flywheel. The pull needs to be long, quick and continuous with no heaving, but solid enough to make your legs work to full extension: which is the object of the exercise.
As your race pieces are short, and you start with a dead flywheel, you'll need to practice a racing start so that you get to speed asap. I pull the first few strokes with feet flat on the stretcher (i.e. short) and at very high rating, then lengthening (with heel lift) only when the speed is right, at least on my scale. Five strokes like this should be plenty even for 250m. We all have a procedure for fast starts, but the feet flat idea gives a clear reference.
Once to speed, you must cool it to race intensity by lengthening and making a smooth relaxed recovery, on pain of death at 2/3 in. Even for short pieces, remember the tortoise wins. Races are always seem longer than they are, as maybe you know, and it's much better to be able to wind it up rather than collapse before time.
Well that's a key problem for scullers and oarsmen. It's done by bracing the back, and I think you'll be good at that. The feel is something like lifting a weight off the floor with the back in a strong posture and legs bent.
However the force you apply is only half the equation; the other half is length of stroke, because what the erg measures is work done, which = length x force. In practical terms you'll need to stretch for the catch, albeit without getting into a weak position, and make sure the finish is solid.
The rowing action and the erg in particular tend to privilege height; so for you it will be important to use all the length you can. As the pieces are short try a relatively high drag, say 3 or 4, at a high rating; but not at the expense of length.
Some experiments with drag can help. Finding the right level is important in transmitting maximum work to the flywheel. The pull needs to be long, quick and continuous with no heaving, but solid enough to make your legs work to full extension: which is the object of the exercise.
As your race pieces are short, and you start with a dead flywheel, you'll need to practice a racing start so that you get to speed asap. I pull the first few strokes with feet flat on the stretcher (i.e. short) and at very high rating, then lengthening (with heel lift) only when the speed is right, at least on my scale. Five strokes like this should be plenty even for 250m. We all have a procedure for fast starts, but the feet flat idea gives a clear reference.
Once to speed, you must cool it to race intensity by lengthening and making a smooth relaxed recovery, on pain of death at 2/3 in. Even for short pieces, remember the tortoise wins. Races are always seem longer than they are, as maybe you know, and it's much better to be able to wind it up rather than collapse before time.
08-1940, 179cm, 75kg post-op (3 bp).