Rowing and Cycling Watts

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LMaster
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by LMaster » May 8th, 2020, 11:08 am

Nomath wrote:
May 8th, 2020, 10:05 am
LMaster wrote:
May 7th, 2020, 3:50 pm
Hamish bond is a good example. He has done 460w for an hour on the TT bike. Regular bike that is probably 480w or so. On the rower I think Hamish has a 1:37 or so split for one hour. That's like 380w or so, in the neighborhood of 20% less.
Are you sure? He should go for the world hour record!
British cyclist Bradley Wiggins, who, in 2015, pedaled 54.526 kilometers (33.881 miles) to set the current men's record, is estimated to have averaged 440 watts.

(I know Victor Campenaerts improved the WHR in April, 2019. I couldn't find his average wattage, except this :
Even current record holder Victor Campenaerts couldn't come close to Wiggins wattage. Campenaerts' Hour Record attempt saw him holding 330 watts over the hour..)
Yes. I'm sure. Like all riders, Bond has a powermeter on his bike. His TT power in world TTs at Innsbruck was right there mid 400s. Like 455. And TT bike is notorious for lowering watts. No surprise given his class and being much bigger than Wiggins.

That's correct for Campenaerts. Much smaller guy, did the hour at altitude in a very extreme position.
Lwt: 5'8" (173cm), 63kg, 6000' Altitude enjoying mixing some erging into my cycling

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Nomath
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Nomath » May 9th, 2020, 11:52 am

There is a classic study by Steinacker and coworkers from 1986 which compared experienced oarsmen and cyclists on both a rowing ergometer and a cycling ergometer.
They measured the oxygen consumption during the tests while the watts were increased stepwise from 150W to about 400W ; 50W steps - 2 mins hold. The oxygen consumption is a direct measure for the rate of burning fuels, i.e. carbohydrates and fat.
I could download this study free of charge, but I am not sure whether this applies to all of you.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... r_exercise

Here are some striking results :
- The net work efficiency (=measured power/(total metabolic energy expenditure - metabolic energy expenditure at rest)) on a rowing ergometer was about 19% ; the net work efficiency on a bike ergometer was 25% for cyclists and 23% for oarsmen.
- At the same power output, the oxygen consumption is significantly lower on a bike ergometer compared to a rowing ergometer (e.g. at 250W a difference of about 0.8 l/min, roughly 25% of the total oxygen uptake)
- At the same power output, the heart rate on a bike ergometer is significantly lower compared to a rowing ergometer (e.g. at 250W a difference of 14 bpm for oarsmen and 9 bpm for cyclists).
- The lower net efficiency of rowing is attributed to the relatively long time between rowing strokes and to the (unaccounted) work for movement of the rower's body.

You can find a lot more interesting and quantitative data in the full paper.

left coaster
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by left coaster » May 12th, 2020, 5:36 pm

Thanks for bumping and keeping this thread going, I had started a similar thread in the training (wrong) section -- should have checked here first.

My initial question is definitely answered, the bike erg is way more efficient. It's also easier for me to get my heart rate up on the bike erg without feeling like I'm working nearly as hard as on the rower. I'm thinking this is because of the continuous leg movement on the bike where on the rower power is on and off constantly.

I still believe some of the interval and resistance features available on my smart trainer would transfer nicely to a rowing erg, a properly tuned magnetic flywheel might also be interesting to try an a rowing erg.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015

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hjs
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by hjs » June 28th, 2020, 3:49 am

flatbread wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 8:03 am
I am not well-adapted to the erg -- I've been back on it since March and only have 60 hours of training time on it, as opposed to over 300 so far this year on the bike. Also, I have not tried anything over easy aerobic rows, given my rib problem the last time I tried erging and did too much, too soon.

All that said -- power is much lower on the erg than on the bike over longer efforts, as has been said, but I see calorie expenditure at a given HR as very similar. My aerobic threshold/VT1 on the bike is 123bpm, and a steady 2-4 hour rides will be around 265w, depending on the humidity. On the erg, I see 2:02-2:03/500 splits at that HR for an hour session. That's about 940 calories/hour either way (950 on the bike, more like 920-930 on the erg when I adjust for body weight).

I find endurance rows at a HR of 110bpm end up with almost the same energy cost as cycling at the same HR.

A friend who is also a long time cyclist and who did Crash-Bs has observed that for most of the folks that he's trained, 1hr power on the bike ends up being 2k power on the erg. I'm not so sure -- I can do 340+ for an hour, at 75kg, but I don't think I could hold 300w for a 2k.
Never really cycling, but always cycle a bit. For me it would be very much the other way around. Not a chance in hell I could 2k power long on the bike.

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hjs
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by hjs » June 28th, 2020, 12:53 pm

flatbread wrote:
June 28th, 2020, 11:11 am
hjs wrote:
June 28th, 2020, 3:49 am

Never really cycling, but always cycle a bit. For me it would be very much the other way around. Not a chance in hell I could 2k power long on the bike.
Specificity is everything -- which is why it's darned hard to try to be good at more than one thing. After August, my training might end up being 60/40 bike to erg. I suspect I'm going to become a worse cyclist.
Absolutly. For erging you also need more upperbody bulk.

But on the other hand look at Hamish bond, who cycled a few years, lost a good bit of weight, but very easily picked up his rowing and pulled 5.43 again on the 2k. His rowing weight is high 80 ies, no doubt his cycling best was a good bit less.

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Gammmmo
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Gammmmo » July 1st, 2020, 8:25 am

flatbread wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 8:03 am
A friend who is also a long time cyclist and who did Crash-Bs has observed that for most of the folks that he's trained, 1hr power on the bike ends up being 2k power on the erg. I'm not so sure -- I can do 340+ for an hour, at 75kg, but I don't think I could hold 300w for a 2k.
Way off IMO. There is no way I could hold my ergo 2K power on the bike for 20mins let alone an hour. If the two values more equal I'd say have a close look at ergo technique. :D
Paul, 48M, 5'11" 80kg (sprint PBs HWT), ex bike time trialler.
LP=1:16, 100m=15.9s, 1min=350m Image
Targets: 355m+ 1min, 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), bench 2 plates, squat 3 plates, deadlift 4 plates

Erg on!

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Gammmmo
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Gammmmo » July 3rd, 2020, 8:49 am

flatbread wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 7:05 am
Gammmmo wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 8:25 am

Way off IMO. There is no way I could hold my ergo 2K power on the bike for 20mins let alone an hour. If the two values more equal I'd say have a close look at ergo technique. :D
I think morphology plays a role, here. You're 80kg, and that 2k power would be 330w. You also have a lot of upper body mass, from your photos.

I'm 1m84, 76kg. I'll try to post a technique video for critique/advice, but I *think* it's reasonable (a former All-American rower showed me the basics, and the only thing she corrected me on was not being relaxed in the arms at the catch). Earlier this year, I did a bike workout of 315w for two hours -- there's no way I'm holding 315w for 2k on the erg.

Cycling has a greater gross mechanical efficiency, and it's all legs. Skinny folks are going to scale better pedaling than pulling.
But that 2K power (infact all my PBs from 2K up) was done at about 72kg*. I am 5'11" and naturally slight. When I was bike racing I was admittedly 65kg (not conducive to massive power!) but v well trained. Still don't think I could hold my 2K power on the bike for an hour even at my best when cycling. If you can do 2hrs on a bike at 315W and you're 76kg....assuming you can train and get that out on a TT bike and get some help with aerodnyamics you'd be exceptional. I was nowhere near that power but was on the podium at the National 100 mile TT in 2015.

* a good deal of that upper body mass IMO is largely irrelevant for me on the ergo but it makes me stronger for weights
Paul, 48M, 5'11" 80kg (sprint PBs HWT), ex bike time trialler.
LP=1:16, 100m=15.9s, 1min=350m Image
Targets: 355m+ 1min, 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), bench 2 plates, squat 3 plates, deadlift 4 plates

Erg on!

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Gammmmo
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Gammmmo » July 3rd, 2020, 2:04 pm

flatbread wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 11:06 am
I hated having a bike that was useless for anything apart from one very specific application.
C'mon, you can never have too many bikes. ;)
flatbread wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 11:06 am
you definitely lose watts in the TT position.
Sure, because of the tighter hip angle but you'd be surprised how close you can get the two power levels IF you REALLY persevere. Specificity and all that....
flatbread wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 11:06 am
There were a couple of local 10mi TT series, so I could always do 1-2 a month from May-Sept, but only two of those were on the TT bike -- most of the time I just used my regular bike. I moved to a different area and just focused on a few hilly/mountain road races.
Fair enough, whatever floats your boat. Testing (TTs) isn't for everyone but I was addicted to it and liked the fact that you could work on your aerodynamics and compete with people who were technically better athletes.
flatbread wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 11:06 am
I'll post a short vid of a few pulls on the erg -- I'd love the feedback. I just got on the thing in March after not touching it for a few years. I got in about 50 hours on the erg in 2018, and I've got 55 so far this year, just steady-state, low heart rate. I hope I have a lot of room to grow with it, because I"m kind of done with bike racing.
Sounds like plenty of low hanging fruit then. If you enjoyed the techie side of training with cycling you'll likely enjoy erging. It has a competitive element, good online following and is more time efficient and IMO a better sport for the aged athlete and esp when combined with weight training - the two complement each other obvs far more than for cycling where obvs all about power/weight ratio. Enjoy......
Paul, 48M, 5'11" 80kg (sprint PBs HWT), ex bike time trialler.
LP=1:16, 100m=15.9s, 1min=350m Image
Targets: 355m+ 1min, 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), bench 2 plates, squat 3 plates, deadlift 4 plates

Erg on!

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hjs
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by hjs » July 4th, 2020, 3:55 am

flatbread wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 8:30 am
some more anecdotal rabbit holes

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch ... _P2672794/

https://fitwerx.com/rowers-vs-cyclists- ... -phillips/

https://wattage.topica.narkive.com/AG00 ... wing-power

one study with untrained subjects (and how well you are trained for either cycling or rowing will obviously affect how your numbers work out)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3193864 ... 20power%20(watts,W%20(mean%20%2B%2F%2D%20SE).
Comparing rowing and cycling.

Think there are few people who train both cycling and rowing at the same time and at a high level.
Rowing is different, the recovery does use energy which is not picked up by the Pm computer, so real power is higher.
Cycling goes via the feet, rowing via the hands. Absolute strenght is almost certain higher via the legs, that must play a role.
Well trained cyclist, who row with a cycling upperbody, pull nothing, so them pulling their 2k power over 60 min on the bije makes sence. Once the are better trained at rowing, with added mass.....

A guy like Hamish Bond, did both, not at the same time but was rower, cyclist and now rower again. And at both very good.
Weight difference was 13kg. Rower 89, cyclist 76kg

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-spo ... ling-plans

Allan Olesen
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Allan Olesen » July 4th, 2020, 8:06 am

flatbread wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 7:05 am
(a former All-American rower showed me the basics, and the only thing she corrected me on was not being relaxed in the arms at the catch).
Good coach. She did not overwhelm you with all your mistakes at once, but instead gave you one thing to focus on.

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