Rowing and Cycling Watts

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Meek
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Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Meek » August 30th, 2019, 8:07 pm

If you row, and regularly or occasionally cycle, how do your watts compare? Similar for distances up to 20min or so? 5min power? Thanks.
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Gammmmo
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Gammmmo » August 31st, 2019, 6:16 am

5K on the erg....>30W lower c/w the bike (but I'm comparing 2017 ergo to 2015 bike and in 2015 I was more cardio fit than I've ever been since). Do a search on the forum as topic has come up before. The "problem" is power delivery is continuous on a bike whereas on the recovery with the ergo you're producing no power so will always tend to be lower.
Paul, 48M, 5'11" 80kg (sprint PBs HWT), ex bike time trialler.
LP=1:16, 100m=15.9s, 1min=350m Image
Targets: 355m+ 1min, 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), bench 2 plates, squat 3 plates, deadlift 4 plates

Erg on!

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by jamesg » September 4th, 2019, 2:40 am

Do you mean on a road bike, or bikerg?
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Carl Watts
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Carl Watts » September 4th, 2019, 7:15 pm

Very difficult to get a direct comparison, the motion is totally different.

The problem has already been covered by those wanting to use the Zwift cycling software using a Concept 2 rower instead of a bike.

It looks to me that the Watts at about 200W, which is about 30km/hr on a road bike on a flat road and 200W on the Erg which is 2:00 pace line up in terms of "intensity" or a matching heartrate but outside that it goes to the weeds. You body weight, ability to change gears on the bike, hills on the bike throw it all out.

Some sort of pretty complex formula that was derived from taking the same person on the bike and then on the erg and basing the conversion on heartrate would need to be derived. I cannot think of anything else but using your heartrate as a major part in deriving the formula that at least puts you somewhere where you should be in a peloton had you been on your bike instead of the rower or its going to be no "Fun" let alone something that can be used to compare your performance on a rower to that of a bike.
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Age:53 Weight: 104kg Height:183cm
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by CaseyClarke » September 5th, 2019, 3:07 pm

I use both the Concept 2 BikeErg and the Rower on a regular basis. I'm close to my best on the BikeErg, but my best rowing days were a few years ago. I'm quite well balanced between sprinting and endurance.

Peak power on the BikeErg is around 1:07 / 1150w. Peak rowing power is lower at around 1:13 / 900w.

Peak 1 minute is very similar. 1:20.4 on the bike and 1:20.0 on the rower (683w v 674w)

Best 4km BikeErg is 6:04.9 (461w) versus best 2km row of 6:15.9 (421w)

As the distances get longer and longer the gap increases more and more. Cycling is way more efficient over longer distance than rowing.

30 minute row = 1:42.3 (326w) versus 1:37.9 (373w) on the BikeErg.

I've done 293w for a 100km BikeErg which took 2hr 56.x mins. If I'd rowed for that long at my peak I'm guessing I would've been around the 1:54 mark (235w) so quite a lot less.

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by CFGB » October 7th, 2019, 6:57 am

Hi,

This is a very interesting question, and something that I have been puzzling about also.

A more general comparison and outside the Concept 2 ecosystem: road bike vs erg

This past summer I put a power meter on my road bike and focused on improving my cycling. The erg results are more recent and were performed without any foundation/base work on my Concept 2, but are the beneficiaries of the residual fitness gained out on the road over summer. I have not done any short pieces on the erg thus far to add a comparison, but here are my 2019 results to date:

Cycling Results:
1. 30min: 267W (Aug-19)
2. 1 hour: 243W (Aug-19)
3. 20min FTP test (generally regarded as the cycling litmus test): 296W (Sep-19)

Concept 2 Results:
1. 30min: 192W (Sep-19)
2. 1 hour: 184W (Oct-19)

To be honest, I didn't realize that there would be such a discrepancy between the two data sets. I have to say one of the things that I have learnt/observed about cycling with power is that it is relentless. I never realised how much time I had spent off the pedals during a decent etc. I am able to maintain a very consistent pace on the erg for my long pieces, but (of course) out on the road, even when consciously making an effort, power fluctuates massively.

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Gammmmo » October 7th, 2019, 7:27 am

CFGB wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 6:57 am
Hi,

This is a very interesting question, and something that I have been puzzling about also.

A more general comparison and outside the Concept 2 ecosystem: road bike vs erg

This past summer I put a power meter on my road bike and focused on improving my cycling. The erg results are more recent and were performed without any foundation/base work on my Concept 2, but are the beneficiaries of the residual fitness gained out on the road over summer. I have not done any short pieces on the erg thus far to add a comparison, but here are my 2019 results to date:

Cycling Results:
1. 30min: 267W (Aug-19)
2. 1 hour: 243W (Aug-19)
3. 20min FTP test (generally regarded as the cycling litmus test): 296W (Sep-19)

Concept 2 Results:
1. 30min: 192W (Sep-19)
2. 1 hour: 184W (Oct-19)

To be honest, I didn't realize that there would be such a discrepancy between the two data sets. I have to say one of the things that I have learnt/observed about cycling with power is that it is relentless. I never realised how much time I had spent off the pedals during a decent etc. I am able to maintain a very consistent pace on the erg for my long pieces, but (of course) out on the road, even when consciously making an effort, power fluctuates massively.
Not sure whether the 1hr test was all-out but that ought to be alot closer to your 20mins power. Furthermore FTP is generally used to denote 1hr max power not 20mins max. I strongly suspect as you erg more the numbers will get quite alot closer to your bike power. Thanks for sharing...
Paul, 48M, 5'11" 80kg (sprint PBs HWT), ex bike time trialler.
LP=1:16, 100m=15.9s, 1min=350m Image
Targets: 355m+ 1min, 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), bench 2 plates, squat 3 plates, deadlift 4 plates

Erg on!

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by CFGB » October 7th, 2019, 8:12 am

Very astute!
You are 100% correct on the 1 hour cycling numbers. The training program records the best power for period that I have had this season. The FTP test was the only all out effort that I did. The 30min and 1 hrs were "best result" periods as part of general training rides.
Cheers - I am looking forward to the challenge of improving the erg numbers!

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Cimba » October 7th, 2019, 8:41 am

For what it is worth 62 ,6ft 1 ,94 k

10000 mt fixed distance on on concept 2 rower 3 times per week av 204 - 206 watts for time between ,generally , between 39.40. -39.55
47 mins fixed time on Keiser m3i bike 2 times per week generally averages 205 - 210 watts

Stuffed at end of both .Only conclusion I can make is that 47 min on Keiser bike is roughly equal to 40 min on concept 2 rower

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by rtbrouwer » April 12th, 2020, 11:35 am

I've been cycling for many years and personally I feel that I can put out more watts on the bike then I can on the rower. But that might be due to the fact that I've been cycling for over a decade, raced at an elite level and have only started using the Erg seriously since about a month.

If you look at the Elite athleets in both disciplines I think that the average output is pretty comparable, but cyling is just a little more efficient it seems.

If you look at the image below you can see that in a roughly 15 minute timetrial the Elite men get over 500 watts (Dumoulin at 526 watts)
If you look at the 5k WR on a concept2 you can see that is also around the 480 watt average mark.

Image

If you look at longer distances it is not uncommon for elite cyclists to have an output of over 300watts average for 6 hours. If you look at the 100k erg record it is at 263 watts average.
Image

So it seems that the bike is a little bit more efficient at producing watts. And keep in mind, the cycling numbers mentioned are all from endurance athletes. If you look at track cyclists then you are looking at up to 2500 watts in an all out sprint. If you would transfer that to a concept2 you have to spin the Erg up to a pace of 0:52.0/500m. Simply impossible.
PB: 500m 1:24.8 - 1k 3:13 - 2k 6:48 - 5k 18:17 - 6k 21:59 - 30m 8064m - 10k 38:09 60m 15771 HM 1:20:45
YB: 500m 1:24.8 - 1k 0:00 - 2k 6:48 - 5k 18:34 - 6k 21:59 - 30m 8064m - 10k 38:09 60m 15771 HM 1:20:45

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Rumpled » April 13th, 2020, 12:30 am

I've been cycling a number of years and am still all not that good. Though, I do race XC and CX. I train fairly regularly indoors with a power meter.
My cycling FTP is 213 watts.
I'm relatively new to rowing and on an hour effort had 83 watts.
So for me, cycling is about 2.5x rowing.

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by optimuswolf » April 13th, 2020, 3:45 am

I'm pretty new to both erg and bike.

rowing 5k pb is at 210W
cycling ftp is 230W but rising fast.

i def suited to cycling better than rowing, probably not helped by a rubbish technique.
37, 82kg, 6'1"
Started rowing again in Jan '20+bikerg

Row: <7' 2K (7:08) ; <19' 5k (19:48)
Bike: 2.5w/kg FTP (2.9) new target 3.0
Run: <20' 5k (21.48) <44' 10k (tbc)

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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by LMaster » May 7th, 2020, 3:50 pm

As everyone said, it's clearly going to be lower. Usually by quite a bit.

A big part of this is slide. C2 estimates 300 cal/hr for 80kg person just using the slide. That's around 80w just going up and down the erg. Although this estimate is a little strange to me, because it would seem to depend on rating as well. Higher rating is greater energy expenditure up and down the slide.

Moreover, at peak powers rowing should be lower, because max spm from sprinting is going to be somewhere between say 40-60. Compare that to cycling where sprint peak powers are usually reached at an rpm of above 100, or for T&F sprinters, often having a cadence of 240-300spm at full speed. Rowing rate is just too slow to accommodate the same power values. Similar to how people would lose significant watts in a cycling sprint if they had to use the 53-11 on a 7% grade to measure their peak sprint wattage.

Rowing efficiency will play a big role here as well. Cycling is pretty rigid and set, efficiency is almost always between 21-25% on the bike. Rowing efficiency can be hugely variable based on technique, many more things need to be connected and working correctly to ensure all the power generated by the body goes to the handle/chain/flywheel.

I've seen people with rowing watts within 10% of bike watts, and others with rowing watts over 40% less than bike watts. Hamish bond is a good example. He has done 460w for an hour on the TT bike. Regular bike that is probably 480w or so. On the rower I think Hamish has a 1:37 or so split for one hour. That's like 380w or so, in the neighborhood of 20% less.
Lwt: 5'8" (173cm), 63kg, 6000' Altitude enjoying mixing some erging into my cycling

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jamesg
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by jamesg » May 8th, 2020, 3:56 am

80w just going up and down the erg....a little strange to me,
If we take our cg speed at rating 40 as 1m/s, KE = mv²/2 at 80 kg = 80/2 = 40 J.

The recovery too is fast at rating 40, total power loss due to kinetic energy in J/s would be = W = 40 * 2 * 40 / 60 = 53W. No doubt there are other losses, so 0.053 x 860 x 4 = 180 kCal/h is rounded up to 300.

We do work in decelerating too, so the above estimate may be incomplete.
08-1940, 183cm, 87kg. Last seen MHR 162, in 2k (2020-05-16) 8.47.5@24

Nomath
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Re: Rowing and Cycling Watts

Post by Nomath » May 8th, 2020, 10:05 am

LMaster wrote:
May 7th, 2020, 3:50 pm
Hamish bond is a good example. He has done 460w for an hour on the TT bike. Regular bike that is probably 480w or so. On the rower I think Hamish has a 1:37 or so split for one hour. That's like 380w or so, in the neighborhood of 20% less.
Are you sure? He should go for the world hour record!
British cyclist Bradley Wiggins, who, in 2015, pedaled 54.526 kilometers (33.881 miles) to set the current men's record, is estimated to have averaged 440 watts.

(I know Victor Campenaerts improved the WHR in April, 2019.
Even current record holder Victor Campenaerts couldn't come close to Wiggins wattage. Campenaerts' Hour Record attempt saw him holding 330 watts over the hour.
The low wattage is certainly due to the altitude of Aguascalientes ; Wiggins' run was at sea level in London).

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