new to running - HR recovery

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nates
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new to running - HR recovery

Post by nates » February 24th, 2020, 6:09 pm

So I'm trying to 1) increase my UT2 training volume and 2) start running. Only I'm not yet running continuously. I'm getting better, but my HR will still shoot past where I want to be working out.

My UT2 number is around 150 and I usually use 130 as my recovery number. This usually makes for a 2 minute cycle. I'd relaxed my upper limit trying to increase my average HR for the workout, but then it really becomes interval training instead of steady state.

Today about halfway through my workout I decided to tighten up both numbers and drop my speed from the 7mph pace that feels good to the 5mph jog that feels like I'm running in place. It will still take me up to max HR if I keep at it, but I it's finally starting to ramp more slowly than it did two weeks agogo. Then it didn't matter what my running speed was. The instant both feet left the ground, my HR shot up quickly. So instead of "intervals" I'm calling this PWM 145. Run until I got 155, walk to 140 (it averages out to 145)

What thinks the collective? Am I better off to get started doing traditional intervals, recovering all the way back down to a warm-up rate? Or is my narrow range interval average HR under UT2 not really a 'steady state's workout?

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hjs
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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by hjs » February 25th, 2020, 1:16 pm

nates wrote:
February 24th, 2020, 6:09 pm
So I'm trying to 1) increase my UT2 training volume and 2) start running. Only I'm not yet running continuously. I'm getting better, but my HR will still shoot past where I want to be working out.

My UT2 number is around 150 and I usually use 130 as my recovery number. This usually makes for a 2 minute cycle. I'd relaxed my upper limit trying to increase my average HR for the workout, but then it really becomes interval training instead of steady state.

Today about halfway through my workout I decided to tighten up both numbers and drop my speed from the 7mph pace that feels good to the 5mph jog that feels like I'm running in place. It will still take me up to max HR if I keep at it, but I it's finally starting to ramp more slowly than it did two weeks agogo. Then it didn't matter what my running speed was. The instant both feet left the ground, my HR shot up quickly. So instead of "intervals" I'm calling this PWM 145. Run until I got 155, walk to 140 (it averages out to 145)

What thinks the collective? Am I better off to get started doing traditional intervals, recovering all the way back down to a warm-up rate? Or is my narrow range interval average HR under UT2 not really a 'steady state's workout?
If you have to take breaks after a short while, you are not doing Ut2 work, that really is long continues effort. You simply seem to be not fit enough. Maybe you should start out with walking instead of running, if needed you could use a backpack to make that a bit more challenging.
Also running very slowly almost always goes along with pretty bad technique. Often bad posture, stamping on the ground, short strokes etc..
I think you are better of with a few sessions a week really running, where you can watch your technique. Think “sprinting”, not at max, but with a good effort. And for ut2 fitness use walking first.
Just a thought.....

nates
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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by nates » February 25th, 2020, 2:12 pm

Walking on flat treadmill peaks out around 115 bpm. Elevation ends up aggrevating big toe arthritis. I'm not taking 'breaks', as in stopping. Just switching between run and walk.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by lindsayh » February 26th, 2020, 5:41 am

yes it doesn't sound like UT2 if you are wearing out.
How did you work out your training ranges? How did you set your MHR?

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hjs
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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by hjs » February 26th, 2020, 5:53 am

nates wrote:
February 25th, 2020, 2:12 pm
Walking on flat treadmill peaks out around 115 bpm. Elevation ends up aggrevating big toe arthritis. I'm not taking 'breaks', as in stopping. Just switching between run and walk.
When I read threadmill.... GO OUT, walk, run outside. Really if i5 was on me, treadmills would be forbidden.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by Allan Olesen » February 26th, 2020, 3:26 pm

nates wrote:
February 25th, 2020, 2:12 pm
Walking on flat treadmill peaks out around 115 bpm.
Your problem is very common among runners who start out doing low intensity run training. Even decent runners, who have previously focused too much on high intensity training, will have problems keeping their heart rate down during slow running.

I can only echo what hjs said: Consider walking instead. You can get plenty of aerobic training at 115 bpm heart rate, even though it feels like it can't be right.

I have been through the same process over the last 2 years. On my very first session I could only run continuously at 4 km/h (less than 3 miles/hour!) within my heart rate target. That is slower than walking. I was basically running on the spot, with very small steps forward.

So I gave up running for a few months and instead did a lot of walking. Ditched the bicycle and started walking to and from work. Actually developed some mild walking injuries when I started getting fit enough to keep a faster walking pace.

After a few months I could start mixing in some running sessions. Still not fast - only just around walking speed. But I could live with that and could start developing from there. I now run at around 7:30/km, which is more or less equal to your dreaded 5 mph. Still very slow, but I can run continuously at that pace while keeping my heart rate within 120-135 BPM.

And I enjoy it because I am actually so relaxed that I can watch the nature around me.

Remember that it is okay to mix in 8-15 seconds of fast running (not sprint) every 3-4 minutes. You will still be fully aerobic (actually a lie, but you will not be using the "wrong" anaerobic system for the first 8-15 seconds), and this training is considered good for your run economy.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by nates » February 26th, 2020, 4:46 pm

I think getting wore out was from letting my HR spike too high. It makes for a lot more fiddling but if I keep to 5mph I don't overshoot but a few bpm after switching back to walk. It's just a lot of switching if I want to stay between 140 and 150bpm. If I was running at 7mph and switched back to walk at 155 bpm, I'd hit upper 160's by the time it started to come back. So even though it feels like 7mph is a better mechanical pace, I'm just not up to that level of output yet. But if those low targets are still ok, then I think I can run/walk on a 150/120 bpm cycle that's around 3 min (that 130-120 tail makes a huge impact on the turnaround time. Recovery to 130 is actually pretty quick. I actually started out my last session doing what I'd previously done, and about halfway through started to modify to a slower speed and lower absolute cap (instead of just trying to shoot for averages.)

I'll see how this works out with a hard cap at 150.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by Allan Olesen » February 26th, 2020, 6:53 pm

nates wrote:
February 26th, 2020, 4:46 pm
It's just a lot of switching if I want to stay between 140 and 150bpm.
I will make my point clearer:

If you need to switch to avoid exceeding your HR cap, you probably shouldn't be running at all. You might be better off walking the entire session.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by sara08 » February 27th, 2020, 9:39 am

I didn't have health issues, but even if I try to run, it turns into back and legs pains, that is not the most safe type of sport

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by Gabe_G » February 28th, 2020, 11:42 am

Running (anything 800M+) is a sport which heavily favors low BMI individuals. Rowing, doesn't. If there isn't a pace that you can run at, while keeping your HR from entering the anaerobic zone, then you will need to switch to incline walking if you want to train under the 75% HR threshold. This is probably for the best anyway - as your joints are probably taking a beating. Running just isn't a sport that caters to higher BMI individuals, whether they have low body fat or not. The mass itself is the problem, whether lean or fat.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by Gabe_G » February 28th, 2020, 12:00 pm

hjs wrote:
February 26th, 2020, 5:53 am
nates wrote:
February 25th, 2020, 2:12 pm
Walking on flat treadmill peaks out around 115 bpm. Elevation ends up aggrevating big toe arthritis. I'm not taking 'breaks', as in stopping. Just switching between run and walk.
When I read threadmill.... GO OUT, walk, run outside. Really if i5 was on me, treadmills would be forbidden.
Not sure where you live. Here in Minnesota, there is a lot of ice. Very rarely are our trails cleaned up enough where I would even risk attempting to "run". Once thing I have observed, especially in the elderly population, is that ice and elderly are about the worst combination you can have. If there is anything that is going to put you in the grave sooner and reduce your quality of life, it will be an unexpected slip on the ice. I am constantly reminding my parents to be extremely careful when going outdoors and to use the treadmill instead. It just isn't worth a fall. One of my child hood mentors and good friend also happened to slip on the ice, crushed his elbow and even a year later, it isn't the same. It never will be. He permanently lost his ability to supinate his left arm. Even if you are not elderly, you are still subjecting yourself to unnecessary risk, when alternate options exist in those climates.

That said, if you live in a great climate all year round and don't have to worry about ice, I would certainly agree that running outdoors is a much better option.

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hjs
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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by hjs » February 29th, 2020, 5:12 am

Gabe_G wrote:
February 28th, 2020, 12:00 pm
hjs wrote:
February 26th, 2020, 5:53 am
nates wrote:
February 25th, 2020, 2:12 pm
Walking on flat treadmill peaks out around 115 bpm. Elevation ends up aggrevating big toe arthritis. I'm not taking 'breaks', as in stopping. Just switching between run and walk.
When I read threadmill.... GO OUT, walk, run outside. Really if i5 was on me, treadmills would be forbidden.
Not sure where you live. Here in Minnesota, there is a lot of ice. Very rarely are our trails cleaned up enough where I would even risk attempting to "run". Once thing I have observed, especially in the elderly population, is that ice and elderly are about the worst combination you can have. If there is anything that is going to put you in the grave sooner and reduce your quality of life, it will be an unexpected slip on the ice. I am constantly reminding my parents to be extremely careful when going outdoors and to use the treadmill instead. It just isn't worth a fall. One of my child hood mentors and good friend also happened to slip on the ice, crushed his elbow and even a year later, it isn't the same. It never will be. He permanently lost his ability to supinate his left arm. Even if you are not elderly, you are still subjecting yourself to unnecessary risk, when alternate options exist in those climates.

That said, if you live in a great climate all year round and don't have to worry about ice, I would certainly agree that running outdoors is a much better option.
Was talking in general, ofcourse ice is a no brainer. Over here, western Europa we have ice, 3 days a year, this year zero days, not seen one snowflake even.
But once the winter is over, I would say go outside.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by Ripples » March 1st, 2020, 12:34 am

Gabe_G wrote:
February 28th, 2020, 12:00 pm
hjs wrote:
February 26th, 2020, 5:53 am
nates wrote:
February 25th, 2020, 2:12 pm
Walking on flat treadmill peaks out around 115 bpm. Elevation ends up aggrevating big toe arthritis. I'm not taking 'breaks', as in stopping. Just switching between run and walk.
When I read threadmill.... GO OUT, walk, run outside. Really if i5 was on me, treadmills would be forbidden.
Not sure where you live. Here in Minnesota, there is a lot of ice. Very rarely are our trails cleaned up enough where I would even risk attempting to "run". Once thing I have observed, especially in the elderly population, is that ice and elderly are about the worst combination you can have. If there is anything that is going to put you in the grave sooner and reduce your quality of life, it will be an unexpected slip on the ice. I am constantly reminding my parents to be extremely careful when going outdoors and to use the treadmill instead. It just isn't worth a fall. One of my child hood mentors and good friend also happened to slip on the ice, crushed his elbow and even a year later, it isn't the same. It never will be. He permanently lost his ability to supinate his left arm. Even if you are not elderly, you are still subjecting yourself to unnecessary risk, when alternate options exist in those climates.

That said, if you live in a great climate all year round and don't have to worry about ice, I would certainly agree that running outdoors is a much better option.
YakTraxs work great on ice and snow. I don’t run, but they do let me walk briskly on my snow covered icy road.

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Re: new to running - HR recovery

Post by jabbba » April 6th, 2020, 10:33 am

New rower but seasoned runner here.

If I can offer advice... I think you are doing it all wrong. I presume you are very fit so what I suggest here might work for you. Running HR is not the same as rowing HR. I could row at the decent pace for 40-50 minutes and barely get over 100bpm, but when I run, that is practically impossible. So don't even try to compare the two and use your rowing HR fitness as a benchmark.

In running, the best way to get your heart rate down and to be more efficient is to do high speed intervals. The results are almost immediate and you can be faster and more efficient within a week. When you do low aerobic training, it takes weeks, sometimes months to get the most benefit out of it. I would suggest you don't worry too much about your heart rate but run on the feel.

I usually run three workouts a week. Tempo (slightly uncomfortable), intervals (highly uncomfortable, but short) and easy long run on the weekends.

For tempo, I can suggest you start with 2x8min at around your 10k pace (with 2min recovery), later, when you get more fit, you can increase these intervals but that depends on your goals. If you are planning to do half marathons you can go up to 30-40 even 50 min tempo runs.
Intervals, you can go wild, 10x30sec hill sprints with, 60 sec recovry; 10x1min with 1min recovery; 6x2min with 1min recovery. (recovery walk, or very slow jog). You want your heart racing during the intervals... Max 20min total session excluding warm up and cool down. Focus on quality not quantity.

Don't forget very gentle and slow 5-10 minute warm ups and cool downs before each tempo or interval session. Walking is also fine...

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