rowing as cross training for a marathon

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jhbugsy
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rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jhbugsy » May 29th, 2020, 12:03 pm

Just got my concept2 rower to use as a cross-training tool to marathon conditioning. I am 70 and have run 135 marathons, but COVID19 has knocked me out of my last 2 scheduled (and canceled) marathons, therefore my conditioning has suffered.
I have loved my first few rows and was surprised to learn that they did not fatigue my legs too much (unlike my spin bike). Still have I a question and would like to hear from others on the subject:
Namely, I run 3-4 times a week and take 1 rest day a wk. That leaves at least 2 days a week for rowing. What kind of rowing workouts do you recommend that won't fatigue my legs when I run the next day. Not talking soreness, but fatigue, i.e. tired legs. Suggestions welcome vis a vis workout duration, steady vs. intervals, high vs. low damper, etc. Are there any video classes for the kind of workouts I need?
Thanks in advance for your help!

jamesg
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jamesg » May 29th, 2020, 4:21 pm

Any low-rating workout (20-23) that keeps your load at 1.5 - 2W/kg should do. You may need to check technique to be sure you can develop that power easily:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dzPz0tD5I
08-1940, 183cm, 87kg. Last seen MHR 162, in 2k (2020-05-16) 8.47.5@24

jhbugsy
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jhbugsy » May 29th, 2020, 5:07 pm

Thanks, James, as I am a newbie To rowing, I don’t understand all the metrics in your post, although I assume the 20 to 23 number alludes to stroke rate. Also, how long is the workout you are suggesting and at what damper setting?

Dangerscouse
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by Dangerscouse » May 30th, 2020, 3:50 am

I hate running so I can't offer any advice on how it all knits together but for marathon training on the rower it's all about long and slow distances.

As James said, 20-23 is the strokes per minute and if you've got a HR monitor aim to keep it at circa 70% of max, or to the suggested watts limit.

The damper setting varies depending on how dirty, or clean, the flywheel is (dust gathers and affects the drag factor on a dirty machine). If you click on More Options there is a Check Drag Factor button, and if you do a few strokes it will show the drag factor. Adjust the damper up or down to get it to circa 100 to start, and see how that feels, as you may like it a bit higher or lower.

For workout duration, maybe start at circa 60 minutes and see how you recover from that?
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

jhbugsy
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jhbugsy » May 30th, 2020, 6:29 am

Thanks, Dangerscouse, that was helpful!
Would love to hear from Runners how the use the rower for marathon cross-training!

UCanRow2
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by UCanRow2 » May 31st, 2020, 6:10 pm

We have a master instructor, Katie Rosso Recker, who is also a HUGE runner. She and I just talked about this two weeks ago! You can check out our convo here: https://youtu.be/QLDdo-uzz_U.

Sarah

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MudSweatAndYears
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by MudSweatAndYears » May 31st, 2020, 6:53 pm

I am also a runner using indoor rowing as cross training. However, I am not a marathoner (I mostly run HM distances), but like OP I run 3-4 times a week. Every non-running day I row. Effectively I am utilising the fact that rowing is a low-impact activity, and my rowing days act as ‘rest days’ for my joints and tendons.

My rowing now focuses on 10k easy rowing whereby I aim for a heart rate similar to what I observe in easy runs. For me that happens to correspond to 2 W power per kg body weight (in line with jamesg’s suggestion).
I run in the mud, I sweat on the erg, and I happily battle the years...
M 59, 1.83m/6', 74kg/163lb. Erging since Sept 2019. Sub-88 on HM, sub-40 on 10k. Aiming for sub-19 on 5k, and a sub-40 on 5k-row/5k-run duathlon.

jhbugsy
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jhbugsy » June 1st, 2020, 7:21 am

UCanRow2 wrote:
May 31st, 2020, 6:10 pm
We have a master instructor, Katie Rosso Recker, who is also a HUGE runner. She and I just talked about this two weeks ago! You can check out our convo here: https://youtu.be/QLDdo-uzz_U.

Sarah
Sarah, thank you for sharing this video, it was very helpful!

jhbugsy
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jhbugsy » June 1st, 2020, 7:32 am

MudSweatAndYears wrote:
May 31st, 2020, 6:53 pm
I am also a runner using indoor rowing as cross training. However, I am not a marathoner (I mostly run HM distances), but like OP I run 3-4 times a week. Every non-running day I row. Effectively I am utilising the fact that rowing is a low-impact activity, and my rowing days act as ‘rest days’ for my joints and tendons.

My rowing now focuses on 10k easy rowing whereby I aim for a heart rate similar to what I observe in easy runs. For me that happens to correspond to 2 W power per kg body weight (in line with jamesg’s suggestion).
Thank you for sharing your experience. A couple of questions: I can't seem to get my rowing heart rate up to my easy marathon heart rate, e.g. 112 bpm even when I'm rowing hard. I wonder if I am using an incorrect combination of rpms, damper setting, etc.
Also, if you are rowing 10K as a HMer should I be rowing 20K on off days?
Finally, as a newbie to rowing, I don't "get" the whole "watts" thing. What is it, how do I use it, and how do I find the the best watts setting for what I am trying to accomplish?
Appreciate your feedback!
Joe H

Dangerscouse
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by Dangerscouse » June 1st, 2020, 7:48 am

jhbugsy wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 7:32 am
I can't seem to get my rowing heart rate up to my easy marathon heart rate, e.g. 112 bpm even when I'm rowing hard. I wonder if I am using an incorrect combination of rpms, damper setting, etc.
Also, if you are rowing 10K as a HMer should I be rowing 20K on off days?
Finally, as a newbie to rowing, I don't "get" the whole "watts" thing. What is it, how do I use it, and how do I find the the best watts setting for what I am trying to accomplish?
Appreciate your feedback!
Joe H
What stroke rate, average pace & drag factor do you use to row? 112 seems very low.

We need to know drag factor as the damper setting varies depending on how 'dirty' the flywheel is (dust accumulates over time and lowers the drag factor). If you press 'More Options' and then 'Check Drag Factor' and row a few strokes it will tell you the drag, and it should probably be about 115-130 as an optimal range.

I'll let others confirm about watts as I don't ever use it.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

jhbugsy
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jhbugsy » June 1st, 2020, 7:56 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 7:48 am
jhbugsy wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 7:32 am
I can't seem to get my rowing heart rate up to my easy marathon heart rate, e.g. 112 bpm even when I'm rowing hard. I wonder if I am using an incorrect combination of rpms, damper setting, etc.
Also, if you are rowing 10K as a HMer should I be rowing 20K on off days?
Finally, as a newbie to rowing, I don't "get" the whole "watts" thing. What is it, how do I use it, and how do I find the the best watts setting for what I am trying to accomplish?
Appreciate your feedback!
Joe H
What stroke rate, average pace & drag factor do you use to row? 112 seems very low.

We need to know drag factor as the damper setting varies depending on how 'dirty' the flywheel is (dust accumulates over time and lowers the drag factor). If you press 'More Options' and then 'Check Drag Factor' and row a few strokes it will tell you the drag, and it should probably be about 115-130 as an optimal range.

I'll let others confirm about watts as I don't ever use it.

112 is my heart beats per minute to my drag factor. How do I determine the drag factor I should be using for a long row? What is a long row for marathon cross training?

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hobbit
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by hobbit » June 1st, 2020, 10:04 am

UCanRow2 wrote:
May 31st, 2020, 6:10 pm
We have a master instructor, Katie Rosso Recker, who is also a HUGE runner. She and I just talked about this two weeks ago! You can check out our convo here: https://youtu.be/QLDdo-uzz_U.

Sarah
Hey, thanks for this Youtube channel. I subscribed. Did not know about it and it's just what I want. I'm just back on the forum after getting injured running AGAIN. And I want to be in top shape in the autumn.
M 65 163cm/5' 4" 57kg/126lb
2k 8:16 (2018) -- 5k 21:03 (2018) -- 30' 7038m (2018) -- 10k 43:19 (2018) -- 60' 13475m (2019) -- HM 1:34:04 (2019)

Dangerscouse
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by Dangerscouse » June 1st, 2020, 12:54 pm

jhbugsy wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 7:56 am
112 is my heart beats per minute to my drag factor. How do I determine the drag factor I should be using for a long row? What is a long row for marathon cross training?
Yeah, I know 112bpm is your HR but it's very low unless your HR max is also extremely, and dangerously, low. As it's so low I'm assuming that there is an issue with drag factor being too low, technique, watts being too low or all of these things. Can you take a screenshot of the end result or copy and paste the data?

Drag factor is subjective so you need to have a play around with it: there isn't really a 'right' drag but it's unusual for anyone to much over 140, and 115-130 is probably about right.

It's tough to advise as to what a 'long row' would be as it depends on how quickly you can recover. I'd start off at 60 minutes and see how you feel, as this maybe too much or not enough. I'm well adapted to the longer distances but it can take a toll on your CNS when you're not used to it, and I'd guess that's also an issue even if you run a lot, due to the different muscle groups used.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

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MudSweatAndYears
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by MudSweatAndYears » June 1st, 2020, 6:26 pm

jhbugsy wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 7:32 am
Thank you for sharing your experience. A couple of questions: I can't seem to get my rowing heart rate up to my easy marathon heart rate, e.g. 112 bpm even when I'm rowing hard. I wonder if I am using an incorrect combination of rpms, damper setting, etc.
Also, if you are rowing 10K as a HMer should I be rowing 20K on off days?
I understand you execute your easy runs at 112 bpm? As others have said, that’s a very low heart rate (even for fully aerobic exercises). But if this is the HR you train at on easy days, and you are happy with this, I suggest you copy over this HR to your indoor rowing (at least for the time being).
If you struggle to get at this HR on a concept2, you are doing something wrong. What damper setting are you using, and how many strokes per minute do you achieve?
On your question of target duration: I suggest you set a target time for rowing equal to the time you run at on easy days. So you just copy over your HR and training duration from your easy running days.
Finally, as a newbie to rowing, I don't "get" the whole "watts" thing. What is it, how do I use it, and how do I find the the best watts setting for what I am trying to accomplish?
Appreciate your feedback!
Joe H
The Watts represent the instantaneous power you deliver to the flywheel. It is the basic measurement the ergometer delivers as function of time. All other performance parameters (distance covered, splits, etc.) are derived from the Watt readings.
You can get the Watt readings on your PM display by selecting ‘change units’. Once you have done this, can you let us know the average Watts you deliver during your exercise (along with the exercise duration)?
I run in the mud, I sweat on the erg, and I happily battle the years...
M 59, 1.83m/6', 74kg/163lb. Erging since Sept 2019. Sub-88 on HM, sub-40 on 10k. Aiming for sub-19 on 5k, and a sub-40 on 5k-row/5k-run duathlon.

jhbugsy
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Re: rowing as cross training for a marathon

Post by jhbugsy » June 1st, 2020, 10:28 pm

Thank you for the explanation and will do!

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