Elbow pain

[peterpark4]

Anybody else out there had elbow pain while doing ski erg??

[carlb]

Anybody else out there had elbow pain while doing ski erg??

There is a group specific to the SkiErg that will get you more answers. Post there and I'll put this reply there too. Here's a link http://www.c2forum.com/viewforum.php?f=33

I think I worked too long and too hard in my first 2 sessions and had either elbow pain or very sore triceps or both. I'm taking a few days off and will go back with short easy 5 minute works. If you have irritated the tendons you may need to take 2 to 8 weeks off and follow the recovery for tennis elbow. On the rower I was over doing the wrist action at the finish and got golfers elbow. I took 2 months off and then came back using flat wrists with no reoccurance, I rowed 28 days of 5k in March.

A Google search for: cross country skiing elbow -"Elbow Valley" -"Elbow Fork"
turned up this article Skier elbow position and Tennis elbow:
http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/xcskiers_c ... eplant.htm

I think the author likes position 2 as the best position with elbows out about 15 degrees from vertical. IMO the SkiErg instructions were showing position 4 with elbow tight to body and vertical. The vertical position may get better times, but the author says it creates tension in the elbow.

So lets discuss more over in the Skierg group....

[carlb]

I was probably putting far too much elbow action into the work, flexing them to probably 30 degrees (0=hands on shoulders, 180=hands on hips). I think I was taking the UK Drop techinque and using that position (elbows close to body, hands near face) at the beginning of every stroke. So ROM of 150+ degrees of extension in every stroke.

Looking at the stroke in the videos (UK Complete and Skierg.com Josh) it appears to me the elbows don't flex past 90 degrees. Real XC Ski probably does not close elbows that much. http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2010_files ... News12.pdf

Last night I focused on maximum elbow flex of 90 degrees and tried to stop short of extending to 180 degrees open. Relaxed wrists, minimal action. I also tried a more relaxed elbows out position as seen in position 2 here http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/xcskiers_c ... eplant.htm

I had zero elbow discomfort or pain. I did limit to 12 minutes and at an easy pace of 3:00 - 2:45.

Wish I had see this SkiErg tip http://ucanrow2.com/instructors/trainer-tips/
"If you’re just getting started on the SkiErg set your damper at 0 and aim to do no more than 5 minutes at first, at a stroke rate somewhere in the upper 30s to low 40s, and build up from there as your fitness improves."

If you look at UK Forum, Misc, SKIERG thread I think RoadRunner's getting started method is good. He did 2 min each Drop, Bow, Bounce, Fly as a warmup.

[carlb]

A 20 min workout with above technique of max of 90 degrees and no elbow pain.

I found an article that researches XC elbow angles and I think confirms the angles I was seeing on the video
Biomechanical Analysis of Double Poling in Elite Cross-Country Skiers
http://www.ussa.org/magnoliaPublic/dms/ ... Skiers.pdf

Study is for real XC skiers in motion and leaning forward, on the Skierg you are still so the body position is not exactly same. See recent BioRow.com on SkiErg.

They identify 2 strategies they labeled A and B. The "A" skiers were faster at double poling (DP).

The angles they identify is what I found interesting.
A: Starts with arms at 89 (+- 5), pulls in to a min of 55 (+- 9), then opens
B: Starts with arms at 112 (+- 11), pulls in to a min of 86 (+- 17), then opens
A and B both finsihed at the same angle (I don't recall but must be 170 to 180).
A and B took the same amount of time, so A is moving elbows faster thru a larger ROM, i.e. fast elbow flexion. A loads up the triceps more.
They noted A had wider elbows i.e. more shoulder abduction.
Peak pole force occurs at the min angle, so the most load on the elbow would be when closed the most.

My thinking is I'm a beginner at this and not adapted at all. Over using the elbows hard is probably asking for elbow tendon inflamation. If I'm making a hard effort I want to do at most the B angles of 110 open - 90 min - 170.
I may try the A angles of 60 - 90 - 170, but only at an easy or medium effort, then see how I feel.

They also note some added force with a final pushoff done in the wrists. That's Wrist Ulna Adduction http://exrx.net/Articulations/Wrist.html#anchor262520 that uses wrist flexors that anchor at the Medial Epicondyle. Search for that and you'll find Golfers Elbow (tendinitist). So I'm going to be careful not going crazy with flipping the wrists at the end. I did that in rowing and got golfers elbow.

The parts discussing "muscle sequencing" on page 816 are interesting identifying major muscles:

existence of a "muscle activation chain" consisting of three important links of muscles.
These were, in sequential order:
1) trunk flexors rectus abdominis and obliquus externus and the hip flexor rectus femoris;
2) shoulder extensors latissimus dorsi, teres major, and pectoralis major; and
3) the shoulder and elbow extensor triceps brachii.

All these muscles showed high EMG activation levels during the first part of PP, contributing to the development of pole force. Thereafter, they switched off according to a "first in-first out" pattern, starting with the abdominal muscles around the occurrence of the minimum hip angle, simultaneously with PPF, followed by the shoulder muscles and triceps brachii during the very last part of PP.

Skiers using the faster strategy A in particular demonstrated a more distinct pattern using their trunk and hip flexors, resulting in the hip-angle characteristics described above.

I want to read more on "Wide Elbow technique" which it says is the modern way. I recall SkiErg docs saying to keep elbows tight to body. The article hobp_poleplant.htm I linked to in my first reply talks about wider elbow position reducing tension.