how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

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hjs
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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by hjs » July 31st, 2020, 11:08 am

flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 9:07 am
should not be much compression on the patella at all -- if there is, you are not hinging your hips backward as you engage your abs/core and drive the arms down.

disclaimer -- I don't yet own a ski erg, but I have been practicing the movement with resistance bands while on the wait list.

Henry refers to the recovery as a "good morning," and that's not quite right -- it's a bit more like the top 25% of a dead lift (except the arms are not hanging down holding the weight). It's a hip hinge, and the glutes should be doing more than the quads both on the drop and the rise.

doing some single-leg dead lifts and romanian dead lifts with dumbells and a light/moderate weight would be a good way to practice the hip hinge. your knee should not come forward much at all -- hinge the hips and drop your butt back.
My hands get to 30/40 cm above ground, so thats certainly a lot more than 25% of the deadlift, for my technique more 75%. But indeed most people go for the higher rate, shorter stroke technique.

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by flatbread » July 31st, 2020, 11:46 am

hjs wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 11:08 am
flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 9:07 am
should not be much compression on the patella at all -- if there is, you are not hinging your hips backward as you engage your abs/core and drive the arms down.

disclaimer -- I don't yet own a ski erg, but I have been practicing the movement with resistance bands while on the wait list.

Henry refers to the recovery as a "good morning," and that's not quite right -- it's a bit more like the top 25% of a dead lift (except the arms are not hanging down holding the weight). It's a hip hinge, and the glutes should be doing more than the quads both on the drop and the rise.

doing some single-leg dead lifts and romanian dead lifts with dumbells and a light/moderate weight would be a good way to practice the hip hinge. your knee should not come forward much at all -- hinge the hips and drop your butt back.
My hands get to 30/40 cm above ground, so thats certainly a lot more than 25% of the deadlift, for my technique more 75%. But indeed most people go for the higher rate, shorter stroke technique.
I'm just talking about the hip, leg, and trunk movements. The arms are a whole different matter.

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by hjs » July 31st, 2020, 12:02 pm

flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 11:46 am
hjs wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 11:08 am
flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 9:07 am
should not be much compression on the patella at all -- if there is, you are not hinging your hips backward as you engage your abs/core and drive the arms down.

disclaimer -- I don't yet own a ski erg, but I have been practicing the movement with resistance bands while on the wait list.

Henry refers to the recovery as a "good morning," and that's not quite right -- it's a bit more like the top 25% of a dead lift (except the arms are not hanging down holding the weight). It's a hip hinge, and the glutes should be doing more than the quads both on the drop and the rise.

doing some single-leg dead lifts and romanian dead lifts with dumbells and a light/moderate weight would be a good way to practice the hip hinge. your knee should not come forward much at all -- hinge the hips and drop your butt back.
My hands get to 30/40 cm above ground, so thats certainly a lot more than 25% of the deadlift, for my technique more 75%. But indeed most people go for the higher rate, shorter stroke technique.
I'm just talking about the hip, leg, and trunk movements. The arms are a whole different matter.
My hips, leg and trunk are making the 75% movement I make when I deadlift, this brings my hands where I say they come. How else should they get there.

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by flatbread » July 31st, 2020, 12:35 pm

I read your post too quickly. Indeed, to get that low you would need to close the hip angle more and increase knee flexion.

Before I moved to the south, I used to ski a bit to get a change from the bike during the winter, so I haven't been practicing the movement pattern in the same way that you do it. Less knee flexion, higher turnover.

At any rate it shouldn't put compressive load on the patella or stress the patellar tendon if you're hinging your hips properly, it shouldn't cause knee pain. If someone is not well-conditioned, getting closer to squat-levels of knee flexion could start to load the quadriceps tendon, but only if one was doing a fair amount of volume on the erg.

Side point -- have you found that double-poling while extending one leg back (as if one were on snow) keeps HR high? I've been trying that technique with the resistance bands, returning to both legs on the recovery, then alternating the leg kick back on the "poling". From what I've read here, that will yield a lower erg score, but will it still be effective as aerobic conditioning, if I want a break from the double-leg pattern?

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by mict450 » July 31st, 2020, 3:18 pm

flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 12:35 pm

Less knee flexion, higher turnover.
Plus shorter stroke length & 1:1 stroke:recovery ratio = on the snow technique, which is my "go to" style. I've been experimenting with Henry's style, what I call the Cross fit style - gives you better numbers & increases your heart rate.
flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 12:35 pm

Side point -- have you found that double-poling while extending one leg back (as if one were on snow) keeps HR high? I've been trying that technique with the resistance bands, returning to both legs on the recovery, then alternating the leg kick back on the "poling". From what I've read here, that will yield a lower erg score, but will it still be effective as aerobic conditioning, if I want a break from the double-leg pattern?
Kick double pole? I do it to as variety, keeps heart rate up, but speed goes down. I also single pole as I find I can really emphasize flexing my lats more. Again, speed goes down. What style you use depends on your goals. Stress your CVS? Stick with DP'ing & play with intensity. Find SS mind-numbingly boring? Add SP'ing, V2, kick DP'ing, baseball swinging R & L, stiff arm pullovers, etc, etc....

Just a note in passing....I used stretch bands both before & after purchasing my poling machine & find they are more strenuous & unpleasant to use. Why? Because you need to control the bands on the eccentric recovery portion of the stroke and really have no real resting phase.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by flatbread » July 31st, 2020, 6:50 pm

mict450 wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 3:18 pm


Just a note in passing....I used stretch bands both before & after purchasing my poling machine & find they are more strenuous & unpleasant to use. Why? Because you need to control the bands on the eccentric recovery portion of the stroke and really have no real resting phase.
resistance bands suck in many, many ways :D

I've actually been using them this year for chest presses, standing rows, and chest pulls. find the right resistance level and 10 reps to failure is 10 reps to failure. they work.

Thanks for the input on the ski erg. Not sure if I'll try Henry's crossfit style -- unless I just can't get over 60% HR peak with skiing style. I really wanted the Thorax, but that crazy thing is as much as a good bike!

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by mict450 » July 31st, 2020, 7:16 pm

flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 6:50 pm

Thanks for the input on the ski erg. Not sure if I'll try Henry's crossfit style -- unless I just can't get over 60% HR peak with skiing style. I really wanted the Thorax, but that crazy thing is as much as a good bike!
I don't have a skierg, but an Ercolina Upper Body Power trainer, for reasons I've written about previously. If you're looking at the Thorax, then I would assume you're wanting it more for on snow transfer of technique & strength. It's horrendously expensive with a very large foot print!

I don't think you'd be missing much by going with the Skierg instead....good piece of kit, a good deal cheaper, smaller footprint & uses the PM5 that we all know & like.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by flatbread » July 31st, 2020, 8:41 pm

mict450 wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 7:16 pm
flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 6:50 pm

Thanks for the input on the ski erg. Not sure if I'll try Henry's crossfit style -- unless I just can't get over 60% HR peak with skiing style. I really wanted the Thorax, but that crazy thing is as much as a good bike!
I don't have a skierg, but an Ercolina Upper Body Power trainer, for reasons I've written about previously. If you're looking at the Thorax, then I would assume you're wanting it more for on snow transfer of technique & strength. It's horrendously expensive with a very large foot print!

I don't think you'd be missing much by going with the Skierg instead....good piece of kit, a good deal cheaper, smaller footprint & uses the PM5 that we all know & like.
I haven't been on snow since George H.W. Bush was President. I was attracted to the ridiculously overengineered Thorax, and that you actually push the poles. It's like 911 of ski ergs. But, I'm an affordable hot hatch guy. C2 SkiErg it is.

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by mict450 » July 31st, 2020, 11:10 pm

Hope you're on the waiting list so you can get it sooner, rather than later.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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hjs
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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by hjs » August 1st, 2020, 3:41 am

flatbread wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 12:35 pm
I read your post too quickly. Indeed, to get that low you would need to close the hip angle more and increase knee flexion.

Before I moved to the south, I used to ski a bit to get a change from the bike during the winter, so I haven't been practicing the movement pattern in the same way that you do it. Less knee flexion, higher turnover.

At any rate it shouldn't put compressive load on the patella or stress the patellar tendon if you're hinging your hips properly, it shouldn't cause knee pain. If someone is not well-conditioned, getting closer to squat-levels of knee flexion could start to load the quadriceps tendon, but only if one was doing a fair amount of volume on the erg.

Side point -- have you found that double-poling while extending one leg back (as if one were on snow) keeps HR high? I've been trying that technique with the resistance bands, returning to both legs on the recovery, then alternating the leg kick back on the "poling". From what I've read here, that will yield a lower erg score, but will it still be effective as aerobic conditioning, if I want a break from the double-leg pattern?
No problem, and the reason I use this technique is simply it gives me the fastest numbers, and like you say, even when dipping lower, its not the knees that are working that hard, the hip/lower back are doing the most work.

Only very little tried the double poling, main reason it makes the motion very much arms only.
I have tried standing in a mixed stand, one leg in front, and staying more upright, to make it more a squat motion, but that gave me no good feel.

Re speed on the skierg, think you can’t get around using a good bit of trunk dipping, roughly speaking its the shoulder movement, from top to bottom that puts the energy in the flywheel. Some keep that movement shorter and rate higher, others the other way around.

What does help, but can only be done very shortly, is jumping up and let bodyweight do some work. Maybe superfit people could use this, or partly this.

Ps I will have a look at my technique, its been a while that I have seen a vid. Just to be more precise. And tell you what angles I make. Will try double and mixed stand also.

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by MiddleAgeCRISIS » August 1st, 2020, 4:11 am

I suffered from patella tendonitis last year which stopped me riding my bike. I've been rowing 20km a day and it's really helped my knee.

I've also used a slant board to do some exercises and stretches. One thing that struck me as I managed my recovery from my daily rowing volume was my calf flexibility and suppleness.

Years of office work and 15 years off from competitive sport had made my calf muscles really short and my fascia gummy. I now stretch my calf muscles and use a massager to mobilise my fascia.

I didnt realise the link between calf tightness / ankle mobility and knee issues. Because of better mobility i put a lot less strain on my knees as the flexion of the ankles provides a shock absorber.

I think its very important to be aware of this element if using the Skierg. Candidly I've not used on but the motion looks like the precise range that used to really hurt my knee.

Regards

Rob

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Re: how much stress do skiergs put on your knees?

Post by flatbread » August 1st, 2020, 6:55 am

mict450 wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 11:10 pm
Hope you're on the waiting list so you can get it sooner, rather than later.
my date is August 5. So, maybe two weeks and I'll have it?

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