Getting enough sleep for gains

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
Andrew Shuck
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Andrew Shuck » May 12th, 2019, 5:10 am

@ Paul, interesting let us know how you get on. All the best.
Male 52 yrs. 6'1"All time P.b's achieved in 2019/20....500m 1:22.91k 3:00.2 2k 6:19.25k 16:50.5 10k 34:57.3 1/2 M 1:17:37.3 60min 16557 full M 2:45:52.7 2018 100k 7:37.27.1
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Ollie Russell
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Ollie Russell » May 29th, 2019, 8:31 am

Sleeping is critical for the body to repair itself; muscle, organs and the immune system. We should all be maximising how much we get, but i guess thats a rather obvious statement when so many of us get such little sleep. I've suffered from insomnia in the past, what i have learnt is that sleep is very routine dependant. Sure, i can scrape by on 4 or 5 hours a night indefinately, my body adjusts and i dont feel too bad day to day doing it. The opposite is also true, you can train yourself to get more. Sleep hygeine is important, no tv or phone in the bedroom, no caffeine after mid day, regular bed time and wake time etc etc...common sense stuff. I think we require less sleep as we age which is also worth thinking about...6 or so hours may well be adequate for you. 7 seems perfect for me but if i worried about getting 8 or 9hrs a night id probably get a little too much sleep and id probably struggle to drop off the following night. I dont think napping is needed, but a solid 7 hours is all we need for our bodies to repair and grow as long as its a quality deep sleep...i believe HGH (growth hormone) is only released in the body during deep sleep. Dont focus on the length of sleep, focus on the quality. Fibit heart rate monitors track sleep and tell you how much deep sleep you get. Lack of gains is more likely due to aging and a declining testosterone level.
Rowing since December 2018
31yrs
6ft 1inch
260lb

2k 6:48:9
10k 38:49
60min 15,324

Goals for 2019: a 6:30 2k, 37:00 10k and would like to try a marathon.

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Gammmmo
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Gammmmo » June 4th, 2019, 5:04 am

One thought that occurred to me....does anyone know why daytime naps might not last very long unless very, very tired? Generally for me I can goto sleep in this fashion 90% of the time but I am only asleep for 5-10mins, upon which I often feel refreshed. Is this because the body is not now tired or to do with circadium rhythm "telling me" now is not the time to sleep?? In general, I don't think I get enough sleep as I stated in the opening post so you might think I'd frequently nap for alot longer.
Paul, 47M, 5'11" 77kg (all PBs done as a LWT tho'), ex bike time trialler.
1min=350m Image
Targets: 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), 180kg deadlift

Erg on!

lindsayh
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by lindsayh » June 4th, 2019, 5:36 am

Gammmmo wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 5:04 am
One thought that occurred to me....does anyone know why daytime naps might not last very long unless very, very tired? Generally for me I can goto sleep in this fashion 90% of the time but I am only asleep for 5-10mins, upon which I often feel refreshed. Is this because the body is not now tired or to do with circadium rhythm "telling me" now is not the time to sleep?? In general, I don't think I get enough sleep as I stated in the opening post so you might think I'd frequently nap for alot longer.
the short nap is actually better that a long one in general as I understand it.
This is what I wrote earlier in this thread:
There is the real world though where not always possible. Napping may be a way of helping.
There is also some good science behind napping and as it turns out the 10-20 minute "powernap" is actually much better than 90 minutes. The power nap is best done in a quiet sitting back position rather than lying down position and it is important not to get to full REM sleep so not too deep. There are 2 daily rhythms in play - the 24 hour circadian that is well known and reinforces the need for us to sleep at night and the 90 minute ultradian rhythm which occurs through the day. If we sleep too long (say 60-90') there is a risk that you will sleep too deeply and wake up at the bottom of an ultradian cycle in a trough and feel worse not better. Good power nappers have increased work/play productivity and good health benefits.
google power napping - lots of good stuff
Lindsay
68yo 91kg
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PBs (65y+) 1 min 349m, 500m 1:29.8, 1k 3:11.7 2k 6:47.4, 5km 18:07.9, 30' 7928m, 10k 37:57.2, 60' 15368m

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Gammmmo
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Gammmmo » July 25th, 2019, 11:01 am

Andrew Shuck wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 5:10 am
@ Paul, interesting let us know how you get on. All the best.
OK so after around 2 months use I'd like to share what I think regarding the above. I didn't experience a sudden or massive difference by taking this adaptogen. I certainly did not get any bump in "aerobic capacity" but what I do think is it makes me more robust to not getting big blocks of sleep each night. It has gotten to the stage lately where I can get 5hrs sleep a night and maybe nap once or twice in the day for 10-20 mins, and feel absolutely fine and not tired at all. Is this optimal? I doubt it but I've been surprised how I feel on levels of sleep I'd in the past really worried about. In my opening post I may've given the impression I'd gotten used to this regime already but I do think the adaptogen has helped. Took at least a month for this feeling to kick in. I suppose the best thing now would be to curtail its use and see if I become more tired. Want to try cordyceps next.
Paul, 47M, 5'11" 77kg (all PBs done as a LWT tho'), ex bike time trialler.
1min=350m Image
Targets: 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), 180kg deadlift

Erg on!

Andrew Shuck
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Andrew Shuck » July 25th, 2019, 1:13 pm

@ Gammo, 5 hrs sleep a night what a luxury..With this hot weather my sleep is more disturbed than normal. :)
Male 52 yrs. 6'1"All time P.b's achieved in 2019/20....500m 1:22.91k 3:00.2 2k 6:19.25k 16:50.5 10k 34:57.3 1/2 M 1:17:37.3 60min 16557 full M 2:45:52.7 2018 100k 7:37.27.1
You're unique, just like everyone else..

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johnlvs2run
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by johnlvs2run » July 25th, 2019, 3:35 pm

Gammmmo wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 9:24 am
As an experiment I've today started taking the adaptogen Ashwaghanda which reputedly lowers cortisol. I strongly suspect of late my cortisol levels are high (thus making gains and building muscle even more challenging for this 47 year old) due to poor sleep for reasons I won't go into here. Hopefully there will be some demonstrative effect. Worth a shot.
Taking a drug to mask over training / under recovery, and/or lack of sleep is a seriously bad idea.
High cortisol levels are more likely due to over training, and especially under recovery, rather than lack of sleep.

There needs to be a balance between training hard and recovery, plus good habits of eating and sleeping.
What you're doing, training hard and then taking a drug - instead of recovering and sleeping properly, is not a good path.
73 5'8 155
age 70+ world record pace per weight percentages
skierg: 100m 87.4 / 500m 86.2 / 1k 85.9 / 2k 89.4 / 5k 87.6 / 10k 89.4 / 60' 92.0 / 21k 93.6
my training log

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Gammmmo
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Gammmmo » July 26th, 2019, 3:00 am

johnlvs2run wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 3:35 pm
Taking a drug to mask over training / under recovery, and/or lack of sleep is a seriously bad idea.
High cortisol levels are more likely due to over training, and especially under recovery, rather than lack of sleep.
Thanks for your input/concern, John. FWIW I am definitely not over training! Can you back up that statement above for my own education? Cortisol is elevated from sleep deprivation it would seem:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9415946
johnlvs2run wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 3:35 pm
There needs to be a balance between training hard and recovery, plus good habits of eating and sleeping.
What you're doing, training hard and then taking a drug - instead of recovering and sleeping properly, is not a good path.
I am fully aware it's not ideal having had 4 years racing bikes where I only really had to focus on that alone. My current lifestyle including job means there is some disruption I can't fully offset. I see taking an adaptogen a) as an experiment and b) just an extension of supportive nutrition.
Paul, 47M, 5'11" 77kg (all PBs done as a LWT tho'), ex bike time trialler.
1min=350m Image
Targets: 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), 180kg deadlift

Erg on!

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Anth_F
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Anth_F » July 26th, 2019, 10:53 am

Cortisol is indeed raised from sleep deprivation.
Gammmmo wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 3:00 am
and b) just an extension of supportive nutrition.
This is how i see the current supplements i am taking to help me with some of my issues. Low T, and raised cortisol levels. And i know beyond any shadow of doubt i'm not overtraining :roll: I'm not training enough lately in fact.
42yo male 5'10 78kg (Rowing since june 9th 2016) PB's 5k 19:22 30min 7518m

My goals are simply to keep fit/get fitter and continue to enjoy rowing on the C2 :)

https://log.concept2.com/log

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johnlvs2run
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by johnlvs2run » July 26th, 2019, 7:10 pm

Gammmmo wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 3:00 am

I am definitely not over training! Can you back up that statement above for my own education?
Over training is over stressed. Lack of sleep is over stressed.
Training hard, even moderately hard when overly stressed is training too hard, which is over training.
Sure, lack of sleep is a stress. Taking a drug or a herb instead of sleeping does not make up for not sleeping.

Very easy non stressful exercise can help to relieve stress, but even so, is not a replacement for sleeping.
73 5'8 155
age 70+ world record pace per weight percentages
skierg: 100m 87.4 / 500m 86.2 / 1k 85.9 / 2k 89.4 / 5k 87.6 / 10k 89.4 / 60' 92.0 / 21k 93.6
my training log

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Gammmmo
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Gammmmo » July 27th, 2019, 4:16 am

johnlvs2run wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 7:10 pm
Gammmmo wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 3:00 am

I am definitely not over training! Can you back up that statement above for my own education?
Over training is over stressed. Lack of sleep is over stressed.
Training hard, even moderately hard when overly stressed is training too hard, which is over training.
Sure, lack of sleep is a stress. Taking a drug or a herb instead of sleeping does not make up for not sleeping.

Very easy non stressful exercise can help to relieve stress, but even so, is not a replacement for sleeping.
Is that a "no" then? ;) Maybe I need less sleep than the average person anyway? Frankly if I was living as holistic a lifestyle as possible I wouldn't be creating free radicals on an ergo like the majority of people on here are anyway, and I might feel I was missing something that made me "tick" i.e. what if abstinence meant a detrimental effect on my mental health from not being able to do something I enjoyed? I like hard exercise. I'll take my chances.
Paul, 47M, 5'11" 77kg (all PBs done as a LWT tho'), ex bike time trialler.
1min=350m Image
Targets: 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), 180kg deadlift

Erg on!

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johnlvs2run
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by johnlvs2run » July 27th, 2019, 9:58 am

Gammmmo wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 4:16 am
Is that a "no" then? ;)
It was a yes, but you had to be there. :)
Maybe I need less sleep than the average person anyway?
Maybe you like having more stress, compared to the amount of activity.

On a different subject, since you've trained on the bike, what is your opinion of the Bikeerg?
73 5'8 155
age 70+ world record pace per weight percentages
skierg: 100m 87.4 / 500m 86.2 / 1k 85.9 / 2k 89.4 / 5k 87.6 / 10k 89.4 / 60' 92.0 / 21k 93.6
my training log

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Gammmmo
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Re: Getting enough sleep for gains

Post by Gammmmo » July 28th, 2019, 3:27 am

johnlvs2run wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 9:58 am
It was a yes, but you had to be there. :)
heh :lol:
johnlvs2run wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 9:58 am
Maybe you like having more stress, compared to the amount of activity.
Yes, possibly...
johnlvs2run wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 9:58 am
On a different subject, since you've trained on the bike, what is your opinion of the Bikeerg?
Sorry, never used one. Stopped proper cycling end of 2015. I think now you'd be better off with a direct drive trainer and maybe a subscription to Zwift.
Paul, 47M, 5'11" 77kg (all PBs done as a LWT tho'), ex bike time trialler.
1min=350m Image
Targets: 1:27(500m), 3:11(1K), 180kg deadlift

Erg on!

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