sailortodd wrote: ↑
August 5th, 2022, 10:53 am
Tsnor wrote: ↑
August 4th, 2022, 10:47 pm
If you think your max is 180 and you do long/slow at 70% = 126 and later discover that your actual max is 190... it made no read training difference. You could have targeted 190 x 70% = 133 instead of 126, but it won't make a difference in your training outcome. Some people do their long/slow at 65% instead of 70%. It works.
To go further with the zone training discussion, I've seen different sources recommending max heart rate to calculate zones or using heart rate reserve. Has anyone done enough work with HR Zone training to experience whether the %MHR or %HRR is a better indicator of the aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold, etc?
My strictly age-based MHR is 183 or 187 depending on whether I use 220-age(37) or 211-(.64*age), which makes my Zone2 upper limit 128-131. If I use the higher MHR and my RHR (50) to calculate HRR, and use the most broadly available formula to calculate zone boundaries ((MHR-RHR)*0.7+RHR or (187-50)*0.7+50) makes my Zone2/3 boundary HR 146. There is a significant difference between keeping my HR below 131 and 146 for a LSD workout - like a 10+s/500m difference.
First the "age based max HR diatribe". You can skip over this if you like. But never ever use a max HR based on age in choosing your own personal training zones. Most of the time it's wrong, about a 1/3 of the time its wrong in a bad direction so it can drive you into overtraining. It's safer to ignore max HR then to use age based max HR in training.
Age based Max HR from population studies is good for answering questions like "how does HR change as people get older". Age based max HR does not work at all for your personal training zones. Its similar to saying "average depth of water is 4 feet. I can't swim, but I'm OK with 4 feet of water, so I'm safe." The formulas predict the average max heartrate based on age. They don't attempt to predict your own personal max HR. <end diatribe>
Second I totally agree with your point. When you plug your personally observed max HR into the zone formulas you get all sorts of answers, and they are not that close. And they all can't be mathematically be correct... Resting HR changes significantly with conditioning level, max HR doesn't. So HR zone formulas based on Heart Rate Reserve will give different answers than formula based on Max HR depending on conditioning level. You end up with a wide range like your "131 and 146" target HRs. If you add in the wattage based zone calculators you end up with more numbers with similar scatter. They don't end up close enough to each other to reliably tell you where to train.
sailortodd wrote: ↑
August 5th, 2022, 10:53 am
Has anyone done enough work with HR Zone training to experience whether the %MHR or %HRR is a better indicator of the aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold, etc?
Yes, and unfortunately some formulas work for some people, other formulas work for others. Elite athletes use lactate testing not formulas to predict lactate for that reason. One British elite rower who posts on youtube and has national team coaches and lactate testing is down to 65% of his max HR as his UT2 target HR, which is way below what any of the formulas predict.
What to do....
1.Err on the low side for the critical boundary between long/slow no stress workouts and workouts that cause stress. (This is the zone 1 / zone 2 boundary in a 3 zone model, the high end of UT2, the point where lactate starts to go up.) Shoot for 70% of your personal max heartrate. This is safely lower than the expected lactate turn point, so lets you train in the UT2 zone. Your training heart rate will be lower than some models predict for the max HR in the UT2 zone, however your goal is to do hours safely in the UT2 zone, not to get as close to the top of the zone as you can.
2.Use your personally observed max HR and several formulas to get in the right range for your zones. (The critical one is the high end of UT2, point where lactate starts to go up.) Then use other data to get to your correct training zone. If you do a few workout days back to back at or under UT2 even on the last day you should feel OK, your breathing should be low enough so you can carry on a conversation. You should not be sore. Your heart rate should remain constant over the workout without you needing to reduce effort level towards the end (no cardiac drift). Even UT2 workouts will cause stress and stress symptoms if you ramp the duration too quickly, or workout overheated or dehydrated, so look for signs that you are pushing too hard on days where you are doing the workouts you normally do under normal conditions.