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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 3:38 am
by KevJGK
Interesting thread.

I read Why We Get Fat & What To Do About It by Gary Taubes a couple of years ago.

I was confused when he wrote “we aren’t getting fat because we over eat – we over eat because we are getting fat”. That seemed crazy but he made a good argument for it – something along the lines of insulin tolerance affecting how we store energy which for some people can go straight to fat rather than glycogen evidenced by two people eating the same food with one of them feeling energised and the other lethargic.

'Fit' people literally get energy to burn while some fat people get almost no energy.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 6:40 am
by markinnb
KevJGK wrote:Interesting thread.

I read Why We Get Fat & What To Do About It by Gary Taubes a couple of years ago.
gARY tAUBES is featured ( a bit ) in th documentary Sugar Coated that is now on NetFlix . It is a fascinating film for those who may not know of how such things play out,: the business, propaganda, marketing and politics of policy making health care versus individual interests and such things.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 7:14 am
by markinnb
I am reluctant to take this thread down the road of looking at one particular person's achievement against his/hers lifestyle. We ( members of this board ) are one big experiment , and the results may vary , within and without.
What SB has achieved is pretty good , to understate the situation.
The issue with how he did it is that it is beyond my reach in terms of convenience and money.
He planned his life well.

My budget and my belly prevent me from attempting such things. I don't eat steaks- the price is too high and I have decided to limit if not cut out entirely animal meals , for the usual reasons. its a personal choice for everyone of course.
SB goes about his business, posting up his efforts and accomplishments without any self aggrandizement. The entire crew have much to brag about yet give themselves little to no credit for their accomplishments. it's often how they could have done such and such better or different or that they didn't hit their target so they've given themselves a new target and learned a valuable lesson.
It seems that many are pure realists who expect much from themselves. Its' pretty cool to read the stuff actually.
with that in mind, I am hoping that 2-3 other guys post up their dietary habits. a couple specific people too.

Aside from that, I am always wondering about the bowel habits of people who profess to be " paleo ". and this is often how they describe themselves : " I am a Paleo guy " or " I do paleo." as if it is a verb.

as it is well known ( for those who are interested in dieting ) that apart from the canadian explorer who said that he faeces were small and unsmelly- many of the Inuit were chronically constipated. straining to poop. lol.. There is an old 'joke' in which the various organs/bodyparts of the human body argue and fight about which one is the actual king of the human. Each one lists the merits with the brain finally declaring himself king. one bodypart simply decided to shut down. Wile it is true that any one bodypart /organ shutting down would end the discussion, the issue was that something that was completely disregarded and dismissed, having no impact at all actually was quite important

I think that the literature has it that the INuit actually had a god or whatever named after farting and who made people constipated .
which seemed ridiculous but there it was.

the high fibre brought about by the 300-700 gram of spinach /day that I read about would probably lessen that effect. Spinach and Kale are now the ' go to ' vegetables to supply fibre and few kcal to the diet.

fatty stools steatorrhoea may be an issue but perhaps only for those people who have just started the high diet , jumping right into it at full throttle, or who have a medical condition. Eating 100-300 grams of fat per day, from day 1 might cause some leakage for some people.

But it always makes me wonder. My constitution can't handle going days of no or minimal fibre.

I suspect that this is true for many who follow these diets of limited or zero carbs: they must take psyllium or some other fibre supplement. not much is ever mentioned.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 7:30 am
by G-dub
I also wonder about how you smell. Breath and body odors change, don't they?

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 7:38 am
by markinnb
G-dub wrote:I also wonder about how you smell. Breath and body odors change, don't they?
the ketones exhaled have a pungent and sort of sickening sweet odor. it's through your pores as well. I remember it well from back in the late 70s: I was helping my training partner do chins and the smell was a bit overwhelming. So yes, breath and body odor does change. For some people more than others. I stay perfectly awesome... everyone else stinks...:D you get the idea.. it's not overly noticeable to the specific individual ( unless they look for it) , it's everyone else who pays the price. The entire gym smelled a bit rank actually. Small gym, many athletes preparing the same way ( hflc with some ind variation within ) for the same for many people, training outdoors was always preferable during those times.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 11:25 am
by jackarabit
. . . and odd that there appear to be only two, rather than one or three (or more?), major fuel conversion processes involved: glycolysis and ketosis. Why does the body "choose" glycolysis as the preferred process in the presence of abundant starch and sugar? Or does the mind choose the cheap and cheerful and the body changes out the cracking or distlling apparatus to suit? Perhaps bodies don't prioritize the conversion chemistries as primary and backup? Multi-fuel engines are nothing new.

The boy scout trailcraft nostalgia over the idealized paleolithic diet is to be expected. Central to this originalist, first causes view is the unstated assumption that great grand daddy hominid was kept very busy gathering food in a world of seasonal scarcity and prey/predator interchangeability. Lot of walkabout puncuated by that old adrenalin rush and some half rotten berries keeps you skinny? Did bold cavemen grow old? Did firetenders grow fat? Was there a perpetual luau in tropical climates? Were ketosis-glycolyis changeovers a yearly gut cycle?

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 11:59 am
by hjs
G-dub wrote:I also wonder about how you smell. Breath and body odors change, don't they?
When in ketoses I certainly can smell it, breath not so much, sweat really has a different odor.

Toilet is seldom a problem for me, constipation very rare.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 1:29 pm
by skiffrace
The beauty of LCHF diet: I stink, can't poop, have no endurance, heart disease and cancer on the way.
But hey, I am obese and desperate - the "cabbage soup diet" did not work, the "cardboard and worms diet" did not work, but I hope (and pray) the LCHF diet will be my Savior.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 1:55 pm
by Shawn Baker
Just some more thoughts-

Firstly, it is very encouraging to see this stuff being discussed, the "success" I've had doing something a little different than the accepted dogma is just a one person example- one that may or may not be of benefit to others. I share it just to provide a framework for discussion and I continue to learn daily!

Just to address a few specific points in which I was referenced

1. I have definitely played with multiple fueling strategies over the last few years with regard to carbohydrates- I did 36 hour massive re-feeds (carb nite) often taking in over 1000gm of carbs in 36 hours (generally I would gain 10-12 lbs in that time. Obviously lots of water), I have done targeting carb cycling- taking a small amount of simple carbs prior to workouts,I have done smaller (200gm) carb loads the night before training- I could not perceive a clear benefit in my training with any of these strategies, especially as I became further and further "fat adapted"- what I did find is generally a lot of gastrointestinal upset and just a general increase in aches and pains. Currently, most days my carbs are between 10-50gms, often I only eat 1 meal a day and likely spent a fair bit of time in ketosis (although I never check levels as I don't think they are all that relevant to what I am trying to achieve).

With regard to constipation- when I first went very low carb and dropped my meal frequency I definitely did notice some constipation- that lasted for a few months and then things normalized and to this day I have no issues (unless I up carb/grain intake and then I tends to have lots of bloating and diarrhea)- my thoughts are that gut biome adapts to whichever chronic diet we choose.

As far as the breath and body odor stuff goes- it has been a very similar story as I could taste "ketosis" on my breath for a while but again that went away- again what is thought to happen is that we get better at utilizing the ketones and thus less tend to be excreted in breath or urine.

There is an extreme paucity of research on long term "Keto" adapted athletes-to point the only study I am aware of was done by Jeff Volek ... 9515003340

This study looked at endurance athletes with an average of 20 months of Keto adaptation (contrast with the vast majority of studies looking at 2-6weeks trials)- it is well worth a read. The take away points from my perspective are that there appears to be a continuation of the adaptation process which extends beyond the typical 3-4 week period that is often cited. The other very significant point was that the muscle glycogen levels were basically identical between chronic high carb athletes and chronic low carb athletes- this was both pre and post exercise. This shows that with long enough adaptation the body gets more efficient at turning things like lactate, protein and glycerol into glucose and subsequently glycogen- if muscle glycogen levels are equal in both groups than one has to wonder what is the advantage of eating more carbohydrates for the long term Keto adapted athlete? Can we assume brain glycogen is also preserved in this instance if we are going to discuss Tim Noakes central governer theory?

It has been pointed out that my life situation may put me in an advantageous position and no doubt that is true. I am extremely fortunate to be able to have a home gym and have nice equipment. I will point out that my food, while high in quality and nutrient density is overall less expensive than the way I used to eat. For example today I will likely only have one main meal (which was a 10 egg omelette with 8oz of bacon and about the same amount of cheese, also about 2 cups of spinach to which I added a lot of olive oil) I might have a little smaller meal later if I'm hungry (but often I am not)- this food for the day is likely less than $10 and I think fairly reasonable for most people.

I certainly don't attribute my ability to perform at a high level to be solely attributed to diet (however I do think it does play a significant role). I am very conscientious about getting adequate sleep, I think cold immersion helps me to recover as well. I am extremely competitive and push myself very hard. That competitive drive resulted in me winning a master's world championships in the Highland games, setting a masters national deadlift record and achieving all American status in 3 separate track and field events (all of this was achieved using as standard high carb diet)- my decision to switch was one of purely health reasons, but I have found, at least for me, it has seemed to enhance my ability to train and I literally feel as though I am younger!

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 14th, 2016, 2:50 pm
by Tim K.
markinnb wrote: Its' pretty cool to read the stuff actually.
with that in mind, I am hoping that 2-3 other guys post up their dietary habits. a couple specific people too.
IDK if this was directed at me but if it was Ill include.

Yesterday I ate for breakfast
1 cup chicken broth
88g tomato
100g broccoli
150g spinach
2.5 g salt
1 egg yolk (dog eats the white along with an other egg and liver)
120g olive oil
40g coconut oil

4eggs sunny side and 120g beef liver

Supper: Didnt weigh it

Large romaine salad with mushrooms, Peppers (green,red,yellow), blueberries (10), nuts and seeds tossed in as much oil as it could hold, there is always a little pooled in the bottom of the bowl.
3 chicken thighs

This morning I was 151lbs when I got out of bed.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology Loch 1

Posted: June 15th, 2016, 6:42 am
by markinnb
mdpfirrman wrote: I've seen Sam Loch post McDonalds on his Twitter account. He actually posted something recently on his Twitter on this very topic.
I think it's a funny read. He even pokes a bit of fun at Robb Wolf (who ironically wrote the article I linked basically stating Lefty's beliefs - and mine by the way).
The link goes to a post that Loch made in 2013. The most recent twitter comment is from late 2015, and most of his tweets are about eating enormous amounts of food- peanut butter, eggs and honey, lifting semi heavy weights and /or trying to be 'awesome " for his followers.

The take-away message that Loch makes is this:

"I implore you to eat healthily and the basic tenants of the paleo diet aren’t bad , but if your diet says that I can’t expend a monumental amount of energy in the form of exercise and occasionally reward myself with a burger, then I am not interested. As I wrote earlier, there is a time and a place to get creepy with your diet if your aspirations warrant it, but this is not standard operations. Nobody should want to live like this full-time and I doubt anyone does."

the quote is his.
Some highly determined individuals in pursuit of their goals certainly do eat /live this way full - time

I don't reward myself with food. Food is merely a fuel for the most part and something to enjoy for the remainder of the time. i don't think to myself " if I make this lift, make this shot, or hit that number, I'll reward myself with a Dairy Queen blizzard. my primary motive for my activities is not so that i can eat more or eat more "negative food calories " . I doubt that many people here - the highly competitive determined people that many of us are - put the darn thing on calories to see if we burned off enough to eat that jelly donut. Some may but many don't.
So it was a poor choice to use reward to describe what he is doing. Unless of course, it is indeed what he does.

he doesn't define healthy but it would seem that he means ' less processed food , less refined carbs ( sugar ). but he likes his burgers & fries and he wants to have them for 'X months " of the year then he hits a more strict food intake in order to reach his target.
so he is brash, semi-impulsive relatively young athlete searching to make an impact in his chosen sport. And since there are more people who don't have the discipline required for doing " X" , he has gone after the majority . To those people, he make sense.

As people get more experience, get older, their opinion may change.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 15th, 2016, 7:54 am
by left coaster
Thanks for the link Shawn, an interesting and recent finding. I figured that mentioning you would bring you back into the conversation. As a point of clarification, it was some Japanese scientists that recently discovered glycogen loading in the brain, the links to the central governor are purely my own theorizing -- it has yet to be proven. I continue to believe that carb 'loading' the day prior to an event is old school thinking and that we definitely don't need 1000 grams of carbs in a day. My thoughts circle around the 150 gram level and taking these on immediately after exercise when we're at our most insulin sensitive.

The brain is super greedy in the rodent models of glycogen loading and takes on 50% or more glycogen by volume relative to the muscles following both endurance exercise to exhaustion that involves hypoglycemia and interval exercise. "if" there is in fact a window of maximum insulin sensitivity when loading carbs is best achieved the question I have is if the brain and muscles would need to compete for resources if glucose supply is very limited or if there is a slower production over time via the liver. All very interesting, over the coming years I may experiment with a more controlled diet but I still don't believe I have adequate evidence to make a fully informed decision. A statement from a clinical nutritionist on a different thread still rings as a very plausable approach, it basically involved daily keto states by fasting 18 hours a day, taking on carbs immediately after exercise which is done early in the 'eating window' and having a fat and protein meal(s) later in the intake window.

Jack makes some important observations i.e. that evolution has likely selected for flexible fueling from an omnivorous diet that may have seasonal cycles. I expect this was true up until a hundred years ago for most Europeans as well. Fruits and veggies in the summer, squash and tubers in the fall, fattened livestock in the dead of winter. It does leave me wondering if there are health benefits to both metabolic states and if cycling between them may be the best approach. I remain unsure if cycling daily, as mentioned above, is best or if this would be better across weeks or months.

Thanks everyone for the great contributions to this thread, very interesting!

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 15th, 2016, 10:26 pm
by Tim K.
I have wondered if we (me) didnt evolve to crave carbohydrate so the resource didnt go to waste and we were left not fattened up for lean times.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 16th, 2016, 7:45 am
by markinnb
what I find interesting , among everything else, is that Loch appears to use the low carb approach ( and thus higher fat intake ) as a performance aid. He, and many other athletes who need to cut up or hit a peak , drops the carbs in the last 3-4 months prior to the event. He may resume carbs in the days leading up to the event. For events where it is beneficial to remain small / tight, then there is no need. Some physique athletes will resort to carbing up to get fuller. that is not applicable here.
so without saying as much, his behavior suggests that he sees that diet approach as being integral to his success. so in essence some sort of performance aid.

Loch's main argument against the paleo/keto appears to be in it's duration. He doesn't want to do this sort of diet year round, apparently due to his desire to eat copious amounts of delicious ( to him ) food items. The allure of being able to eat mountains of food has not worn off . believe me Loch, it gets monotonous- call me in 20 years. - not that SL is here reading this.
He is a fan of intermittent fasting. at least he was back in 2013.. too bad he hasn't updated his dth website in 3 years or his twitter account in 6months.
Shawn doesn't consider it a performance diet- or at least not much and only a contributing factor among many other things that he does.
Wolf and some others actually include many of the dark green and bright orange ( kale , spinach, carrots, cukes, whatnot ) in the diet.
W endorses the concept of 'net carbs" which account for fibre.
In order to bring more people into the fold and/or back to the pews, the new Atkins diet includes more veges, some sugar free deserts and alcohol. pandering to the masses.

The trouble with using us as a population is that many of us are determined and disciplined. We may stick to a diet even though we don't initially find it enjoyable but over time, come to accept it.

I've read of the 5/2 idea where you eat the high fat diet for 5 ays then eat 'regular' or high carb for the weekend. This is not the 'refeed' or ' cheat days' that some athletes use.

One issue is that over the years, many people have done incredible things following several different diets, both within themselves over the course of their career as well as different people accomplishing great stuff.

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Posted: June 16th, 2016, 10:58 am
by mdpfirrman
I personally have great respect for people that are disciplined with their diets. I'm more disciplined than 99% of the population with mine but still have moments where I eat more carbs. What turned me off of the paleo movement wasn't that I thought they were wrong, it was the amount of hypocrites (and I'm not talking those on here - I think Tim and Shawn seem pretty loyal too it and actually practice it). But you go on a lot of "paleo" sites and see ridiculous recipes with honey or molasses and it's usually those that are using paleo as a weight loss tool (or cheating with tons of cheese). When you point these inconsistencies out, they typically respond with "well, I'm not 100% strict" but they don't eat quinoa why?? It's absurd when you think of it.

As for ultra low carb, I'm not a performance athlete so I can't say what works best but I appreciate the information. If I had the ability to watch my carbs as religiously as some I might try this lifestyle. I think it would help my wife's inflammation. We've cut a LOT of sugar, but are not as strict as we could be. Learning more and more every day about LCHF. For me, I think it will be more incremental. Knowing that MCT Oils help keep you burning fat while allowing more carbs (without moving out of ketosis) might help me if I really ever want to stay ultra low carb for an extended period of time. At least that's my understanding of why to add more MCT oils to a low carb diet.

Right now, I'm still a bit skeptical about my ability to perform. I'll look at the information Shawn provided a few more times. Maybe I didn't give it long enough because of how miserable I felt.