2K test and exercse induced asthma

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
nates
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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 26th, 2020, 6:15 am

I "learned" as a kid that if I left my asthma alone, it left me alone. But I think now for those of us with EIA, those intervals and building your aerobic base up is even more critical.

Part of what drew me to rowing (aside from bad kneees) was that I CAN get a good workout. There was basically no speed at which I could jog without constriction in under a minute. But as I improved, I couldn't really walk any faster without switching to a jog, and it just took forever to burn off a significant number of calories walking. But I can "break a good sweat" on the rower. (Turns out I don't sweat much. But I will be tired) And there's no magical heartbeat cliff that if I get close to it ends the workout. If I start wheezing a little (which monitoring heart rate has pretty much ended) on the rower, I can back off for a few seconds and it stays under control. That slower controlled onset becomes super important when trying to do max effort intervals.

I still always keep my rescue inhaler handy when exercising, but sometimes I no longer need it even on Interval days. I suspect I would if I were doing longer intervals than 45s, but they seem to be working. Maybe I'll never be able to do 3 minute intervals, but if 45s intervals gets me to a faster aerobic time then it's done its job

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by ampire » January 26th, 2020, 8:51 am

jamesg wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 1:30 am
its the really anaerobic workouts for a sustained duration where I start having it,
"Anaerobic" and "Sustained" seem to be in contradiction. Maybe little and often would be a better option, if it's essential.

As a matter of curiosity, what can't you do if you train aerobically only?

I was able to hold sub 2:00 pace for 30 mins straight, however at that pace, my heart rate is in the 160-170s. My max heart rate is somewhere around 190, my understanding is my anaerobic threshold is around 171. Around that pacing seemed to be the point where my lungs would start tightening up. Therefore, I have been doing a lot of 2:08 to 2:10 pacing which is around 155 BPM and the split has gradually been dropping, with enough weekly hours in that lower BPM range I hope to be able to row at 2:00 and have a heart rate of =/<155.
nates wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 6:15 am
I "learned" as a kid that if I left my asthma alone, it left me alone. But I think now for those of us with EIA, those intervals and building your aerobic base up is even more critical.

Part of what drew me to rowing (aside from bad kneees) was that I CAN get a good workout. There was basically no speed at which I could jog without constriction in under a minute. But as I improved, I couldn't really walk any faster without switching to a jog, and it just took forever to burn off a significant number of calories walking. But I can "break a good sweat" on the rower. (Turns out I don't sweat much. But I will be tired) And there's no magical heartbeat cliff that if I get close to it ends the workout. If I start wheezing a little (which monitoring heart rate has pretty much ended) on the rower, I can back off for a few seconds and it stays under control. That slower controlled onset becomes super important when trying to do max effort intervals.

I still always keep my rescue inhaler handy when exercising, but sometimes I no longer need it even on Interval days. I suspect I would if I were doing longer intervals than 45s, but they seem to be working. Maybe I'll never be able to do 3 minute intervals, but if 45s intervals gets me to a faster aerobic time then it's done its job
If you can make even just a small incremental progress, but you are consistent, than eventually you will have made a large amount of progress, so keep at it. What heart rate are you at typically for these intervals? Do you do long slow steady state as well?

Right now I am trying Monday: Weights only, Tuesday,Wednesday,&Thursday: 1 hour each steady state 145-155BPM, Friday: Weights only, Saturday: HIIT, Sunday: 1 hour steady state <145BPM.
Last edited by ampire on January 26th, 2020, 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by Citroen » January 26th, 2020, 9:36 am

ampire wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 8:51 am
My max heart rate is somewhere around 190, my understanding is my anaerobic threshold is around 171.
How do you know? Have you measured it or are you using the discredited 220-age nonsense?

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by ampire » January 26th, 2020, 9:40 am

Citroen wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 9:36 am
ampire wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 8:51 am
My max heart rate is somewhere around 190, my understanding is my anaerobic threshold is around 171.
How do you know? Have you measured it or are you using the discredited 220-age nonsense?
Garmin HRM1G Heart rate band, but I need to properly ramp test it. I should have used the band for my 2K test in December, but until recently I haven't found it comfortable to train in. I have gradually gotten used to wearing it and don't notice it as much. I had spinal cord surgery at T4-T5 in 2016, and have some dermatome neuralgia at that level, the band rests around T5 on my torso. The more I row, the less neuralgia I have so I can tolerate wearing the HRM more.
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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 26th, 2020, 10:40 am

ampire wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 8:51 am
If you can make even just a small incremental progress, but you are consistent, than eventually you will have made a large amount of progress, so keep at it. What heart rate are you at typically for these intervals? Do you do long slow steady state as well?
I turn 50 in a few months. My max observed heart rate (Garmin HRM-dual) is 186 for a few seconds. On intervals I try to push it as hard as I can, usually up around 170-180 (will power appears to be part of the feedback loop nature put in place around your heart :roll: ). I try to do that two days a week and three days a week I just strap in and try to row 6-10k at 150bpm. I did a 10k on Friday, and it felt good. I also relaxed the upper cap a bit, 160 is tiring but nothing like the interval effort. Friday shows: v2000m/1:45r...5 row, 10k in 51:38 moving, at a 2:34 pace and average heart rate of 158. One of the 2k's was at 9:52, my best time so far. I also learned a bit about stroke rate and recovery since the last interval day that I used on Friday's 10k row.

The high heart rate intervals leave me feeling euphoric - it's hard to sit still at my desk. But I still sometimes need a rest day afterwards. I'd been doing intervals on Tuesday/Thursday but I think I'm going to try and make Friday one of them so that I have have two days rest built in. I work out in a gym on my way to work. (I do have a Marcy magnetic rower at home, but once I got on a Concept 2, I realize it has some 'design issues' - I welded a bracket to relocate the foot rest back an arm length from the catch, need to get some paint on it and button it back up.)

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by ampire » January 26th, 2020, 12:02 pm

nates wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 10:40 am
ampire wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 8:51 am
If you can make even just a small incremental progress, but you are consistent, than eventually you will have made a large amount of progress, so keep at it. What heart rate are you at typically for these intervals? Do you do long slow steady state as well?
I turn 50 in a few months. My max observed heart rate (Garmin HRM-dual) is 186 for a few seconds. On intervals I try to push it as hard as I can, usually up around 170-180 (will power appears to be part of the feedback loop nature put in place around your heart :roll: ). I try to do that two days a week and three days a week I just strap in and try to row 6-10k at 150bpm. I did a 10k on Friday, and it felt good. I also relaxed the upper cap a bit, 160 is tiring but nothing like the interval effort. Friday shows: v2000m/1:45r...5 row, 10k in 51:38 moving, at a 2:34 pace and average heart rate of 158. One of the 2k's was at 9:52, my best time so far. I also learned a bit about stroke rate and recovery since the last interval day that I used on Friday's 10k row.

The high heart rate intervals leave me feeling euphoric - it's hard to sit still at my desk. But I still sometimes need a rest day afterwards. I'd been doing intervals on Tuesday/Thursday but I think I'm going to try and make Friday one of them so that I have have two days rest built in. I work out in a gym on my way to work. (I do have a Marcy magnetic rower at home, but once I got on a Concept 2, I realize it has some 'design issues' - I welded a bracket to relocate the foot rest back an arm length from the catch, need to get some paint on it and button it back up.)
Whatever feels comfortable I think is the way to go. I read a lot about the benefits of long steady state so I have switched to that for the majority of my training and have only recently added the HIIT back in now that I have a solution to the erg cough. Also you didn't mention it but make sure to check your damper/drag factor setting.
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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 26th, 2020, 1:49 pm

DF was 129.

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 27th, 2020, 10:24 am

Posted in Today's training but it's relevant here too. Was getting some slight wheezing at 165bpm, then hit 187 in the next interval during the final push - where I was finally getting into some mild constriction. Not enough to worry but enough to make for a miserable workout. Also the first time I've hit that high outside of 45s intervals. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been capable of this level of work a few weeks ago. I didn't end up taking a puff on the inhaler until after the 187bpm push (actually a new recorded max HR). 150 is actually pretty sustainable and 160 is probably sustainable for a 10k.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M HR (DF=120)
52:56.6 10,000m 2:38.8 87 600 18 149
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:19.2 2,000m 2:34.8 94 624 19 141 /r: 1:46
9:42.5 2,000m 2:25.6 113 690 18 165 /r: 2:20
9:40.9 2,000m 2:25.2 114 693 18 187 /r: 4:06
11:16.9 2,000m 2:49.2 72 548 16 152 /r: 3:10 3m
11:57.0 2,000m 2:59.2 61 509 17 139

Image
Not sure what's going on with the pace going to 0:00 at the end of the interval. That seems to be an artifact of interaction between the c2 log export to Garmin Connect. That brief push was a bit much - and started trying to hold back to 140bpm for the rest of the workout. For me 2:30 / 100w seems to be a good steady state sweet spot right now.

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 28th, 2020, 12:57 am

Yeah. Not doing that again. It wrecked me. From now on any workouts on sick days will be strictly limited to Zone 2.

The spikes in pace at the end are divide by zeros. They go away if you display it in speed instead of pace.

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by jamesg » January 28th, 2020, 4:31 am

If the limit of aerobic is lung capacity, due to obstruction or anything else, I'd guess that it'll be there that we feel the effects if and when we go anaerobic. A limit must make itself felt, one way or another, if our self-protection mechanisms are to kick in.

If you call it wheezing, there's enough here to suggest it's best not to have anything to do with it:
https://www.healthline.com/health/wheezing

For normal health and fitness training, carrying no cash prizes but plenty in kind, anaerobic would seem worse than useless.
08-1940, 183cm, 87kg. Last seen MHR 162, in 2k (2020-05-16) 8.47.5@24

nates
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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 28th, 2020, 10:58 am

Yes, asthma is a serious condition. But neither that article not my doctor say that if you have it you should avoid exercising to your limits. Building up your aerobic base is even more critical.

https://www.asthma.org.uk/advice/living ... ctivities/

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by ampire » January 28th, 2020, 12:16 pm

You could try what I am doing: Targetting an aerobic heart rate zone like 150 BPM and do something like three or four workouts per week performing 3x20min/30 second rest interval with stroke rate in the range of 20-25, whatever feels smooth to you. Basically an hour steady state but use the 30 second rests to adjust fan, swig water, adjust your seat, refocus. Go for a split you can maintain with a heart rate somewhere around 150 +/-10. The heart rate will creep up so for example a split that sits at 145 maybe at the start and gradually rises as you get hotter, but doesn't exceed 160. Over a few weeks you will find that the split will drop and you will be getting faster. I've been trying this for the past month and found big improvements dropping from 2:12 to 2:08 already! If you are having the asthma doing this, then set the heart rate target lower such as 140 not to exceed 150 or 130 not to exceed 140. Over time, you will still get faster generating more watts but at a lower heart rate, eventually going quite fast but still being below the limit that causes your asthma.
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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 28th, 2020, 1:44 pm

That's pretty much what I arrived at too. I could do 150 for hours on end. I 'm barely sweating, and it's still around 2:30. 160 is sustainable for an hour, but that's about the limit of what I'd consider "steady state" right now.

I just got my non-Concept2 rower buttoned back up after welding a new bracket to move the pedals to the right place. It's pretty stupid on electronics but I have the watch/chest strap and that's all I really care about at home. It doesn't do meters, just strokes and "calories" however those are figured on this machine. Just something so I can be get an hour steady state on Saturday morning or if I want to add an evening steady state after the kid is in bed. Still wish it were easier to log those too though)

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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by ampire » January 28th, 2020, 11:01 pm

nates wrote:
January 28th, 2020, 1:44 pm
That's pretty much what I arrived at too. I could do 150 for hours on end. I 'm barely sweating, and it's still around 2:30. 160 is sustainable for an hour, but that's about the limit of what I'd consider "steady state" right now.

I just got my non-Concept2 rower buttoned back up after welding a new bracket to move the pedals to the right place. It's pretty stupid on electronics but I have the watch/chest strap and that's all I really care about at home. It doesn't do meters, just strokes and "calories" however those are figured on this machine. Just something so I can be get an hour steady state on Saturday morning or if I want to add an evening steady state after the kid is in bed. Still wish it were easier to log those too though)
You could try something even less intense, maybe an hour with session average target of 140 BPM and 2:35, and see if the following month or two you drop a second off the split and are maybe 140 BPM and 2:34. Then a month or two after that,140 BPM and 2:33 and so forth. Ideally it is this linear but maybe it will take longer or shorter. The less intense the heart rate, the more hours of steady state you can fit in per week. The more training you do, the more adaptation occurs. I'd imagine that as you develop your aerobic ability over time, you might end up at your previous intense interval's pace of 2:25 and yet this time still be at 140 BPM and even able to do it for an hour, which would be pretty stellar improvement because you could hold your previous time with ease and and always under that ventilatory threshold that triggers your asthma. Its sort of a long term fitness building strategy and requires some discipline at times.
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Re: 2K test and exercse induced asthma

Post by nates » January 30th, 2020, 1:14 pm

Another 10k this morning, 5x2k at 160-164bpm, and absolute no constriction, no inhaler. I'll take that over better time any day. I'm not sure what's finding how close I can get to the limit, or what's improving. I know I'm improving a bit because the times are creeping down and the recovery is getting shorter (too short sometimes. I usually make 120bpm my recovery point - if I'm going at 150-160bpm then recovery is around 1:30-1:45 now, but if I hit 180 it goes up to 4m or so. But I'd still expect constriction to occur at similar heart rate numbers, regardless of conditioning level (with the same HR corresponding to more work/better times as conditioning improves.)

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