Need help understanding where I should be training

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
lostdog54
Paddler
Posts: 6
Joined: May 14th, 2020, 10:56 am

Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by lostdog54 » June 17th, 2020, 11:34 am

SOme background first...

I'm 42 years old, 270 pounds (122kg), and not in great shape. In the last year, I've managed to drop 50 pounds, namely with the help of better eating and more recently, my Model D.

My goals are trying to lose more weight, probably another 50-60 pounds ideally, and improve my conditioning so I can be more active in my whole life. I'd like some faster times, but that's not the highest priority.

To that end, I've read about steady state rowing and it's benefits for improving CV health and capacity. My question is whether or not what I've been doing actually constitutes steady state or not.

My best 2k is 8:25. Def not great, but could be better if I could just sustain my intensity for longer (hence the desire to increase my CV capacity). For the last couple days, I've been putting in 30-35 minutes at an avg heart rate of about 143bpm with an avg SR of around 19. Is that considered a steady state workout, or is that HR too high? I feel like I'm getting a great workout in that time, and it leaves me sweaty as hell. But am I actually working at a correct rate for improvement?

My thinking is to do a couple workouts like this every week, with another 2-3 HIIT rows mixed in (10 x 1min, 1min light effort between). Will this get me where I want to be?

Thanks in advance for any advice. This rower is the best purchase I've ever made. I think about it all day at work and can't wait to jump on when I get home. Just want to make sure I'm maximizing my time spent.

jamesg
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2858
Joined: March 18th, 2006, 3:44 am
Location: Trentino Italy

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by jamesg » June 17th, 2020, 3:05 pm

I've been putting in 30-35 minutes at an avg heart rate of about 143bpm with an avg SR of around 19.
"Average" 143 could mean it went a little too high at the end (150-155?). If so you'd lose nothing by cooling it slightly to keep going. Calories on the erg are never as many as we'd like.

But for endurance, switching to a safer cardio condition and converting fat to energy it'll be hard to find anything more effective than sheer distance at low HR.
08-1940, 183cm, 87kg. Last seen MHR 162, in 2k (2020-05-16) 8.47.5@24

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 4540
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by Dangerscouse » June 17th, 2020, 3:30 pm

lostdog54 wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 11:34 am
SOme background first...

I'm 42 years old, 270 pounds (122kg), and not in great shape. In the last year, I've managed to drop 50 pounds, namely with the help of better eating and more recently, my Model D.

My goals are trying to lose more weight, probably another 50-60 pounds ideally, and improve my conditioning so I can be more active in my whole life. I'd like some faster times, but that's not the highest priority.

To that end, I've read about steady state rowing and it's benefits for improving CV health and capacity. My question is whether or not what I've been doing actually constitutes steady state or not.

My best 2k is 8:25. Def not great, but could be better if I could just sustain my intensity for longer (hence the desire to increase my CV capacity). For the last couple days, I've been putting in 30-35 minutes at an avg heart rate of about 143bpm with an avg SR of around 19. Is that considered a steady state workout, or is that HR too high? I feel like I'm getting a great workout in that time, and it leaves me sweaty as hell. But am I actually working at a correct rate for improvement?

My thinking is to do a couple workouts like this every week, with another 2-3 HIIT rows mixed in (10 x 1min, 1min light effort between). Will this get me where I want to be?

Thanks in advance for any advice. This rower is the best purchase I've ever made. I think about it all day at work and can't wait to jump on when I get home. Just want to make sure I'm maximizing my time spent.
Welcome to the forum.

Don't use average HR as a guide. As James says it's not ideal as it doesn't track it properly for what you need, so use a capped HR instead.

It's hard to say if it's too high at 143, as you need to know your max HR. Ideally you want to row at circa 70% of max HR to lose weight and build your base fitness. This can be up to 75% if you want but that's probably more relevant when you want to get faster.

As ascertaining your HR is quite hard, you can use the old school method of aiming for a session that you can sing a few short lines of a song, or have a short conversation with someone. If you can do either you're going too fast.

My guess is that 143 is too high and you should be aiming for circa 130 but give it a try based on the above criteria and see if it's too fast or slow. This will mean a slower pace but it's important to build your base fitness before you try and get faster. Really sweaty isn't necessarily a bad sign, but it does make me think you're going too fast.

I'd also limit the HIIT to once a week and do as many long and slow distances as possible. If you can increase it to more than 30-35 minutes that will be beneficial and increase the pace of your progress.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

lostdog54
Paddler
Posts: 6
Joined: May 14th, 2020, 10:56 am

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by lostdog54 » June 17th, 2020, 4:56 pm

Ok, thanks to you both for the clear advice.

I'll shoot for an hour at a lower intensity. Man, I can already see that getting frustrating and boring lol. Gonna have to line up some good podcasts.

Out of curiosity, if I kept at the effort level I'm currently using (~143bpm avg) but increase the length of time to say 45 mins or an hour...what would I be training? Would that do more harm than good? Gotta say, it does feel good getting my sweat on, know what I mean?

lindsayh
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 3540
Joined: June 23rd, 2013, 3:32 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by lindsayh » June 18th, 2020, 2:29 am

lostdog54 wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 4:56 pm
Out of curiosity, if I kept at the effort level I'm currently using (~143bpm avg) but increase the length of time to say 45 mins or an hour...what would I be training? Would that do more harm than good? Gotta say, it does feel good getting my sweat on, know what I mean?
As above - it is the HR cap not the average that is important. The average wont reflect the peak and is pretty meaningless. If you are >80% of max HR then you are over the aerobic threshold and lose the benefit of improving cardio fitness and weight loss. If the average is 143 then the max could easily be 160. You probably need a max of 145/150 not an average. If you assume a MHR of about 180 and your resting is 60 then your reserve is 120 and the cap of 70% is 84 + 60 = 144 (your real numbers may be a little different of course. A heavy sweat suggests you are over your goal of UT2 to UT1. This may help http://freespir.s409.sureserver.com/for ... calculator

I would also suggest one higher intensity interval session a week at this stage of training and as much steady state as you have time for allowing for one rest day a week too.
It is useful sometimes to reduce the boredom factor on long sessions by breaking them up without losing the benefits - such as 4x 13'/2'R or 3x 18'/2'R.
Lindsay
69yo 93kg
Sydney Australia
Forum Flyer
PBs (65y+) 1 min 349m, 500m 1:29.8, 1k 3:11.7 2k 6:47.4, 5km 18:07.9, 30' 7928m, 10k 37:57.2, 60' 15368m

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 4540
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by Dangerscouse » June 18th, 2020, 7:38 am

lostdog54 wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 4:56 pm
Ok, thanks to you both for the clear advice.

I'll shoot for an hour at a lower intensity. Man, I can already see that getting frustrating and boring lol. Gonna have to line up some good podcasts.

Out of curiosity, if I kept at the effort level I'm currently using (~143bpm avg) but increase the length of time to say 45 mins or an hour...what would I be training? Would that do more harm than good? Gotta say, it does feel good getting my sweat on, know what I mean?
You need to subtly try and change your viewpoint, as you will probably just yearn for faster sweatier sessions if you don't. I'm not saying it's easy to do but it definitely helps. Podcasts / TV / music etc can be great distraction for the longer distances.

I still suspect that 143, even as a capped HR, is too fast for what your goals are. Increasing the time to 45-60mins is a good idea but you need to lower the pace as you will undermine your recovery.

If you go slower on the slow days you will have more energy to go faster on the fast days. This is the fundamental basis of training and will be an issue for your ego to accept but it's all about focusing on your end goal and not short term satisfaction that ultimately will lead you astray from where you want to be.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

lostdog54
Paddler
Posts: 6
Joined: May 14th, 2020, 10:56 am

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by lostdog54 » June 18th, 2020, 11:12 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 7:38 am

If you go slower on the slow days you will have more energy to go faster on the fast days. This is the fundamental basis of training and will be an issue for your ego to accept but it's all about focusing on your end goal and not short term satisfaction that ultimately will lead you astray from where you want to be.
Ok, this makes sense. You're right, I need to adjust my thinking and expectations. Build the base first. On it.

Thanks again to you all for the advice. Hopefully I can check back in here in a few months with some progress reports for you.

User avatar
hjs
Marathon Poster
Posts: 9345
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
Location: Amstelveen the netherlands

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by hjs » June 18th, 2020, 11:44 am

lostdog54 wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 11:12 am
Dangerscouse wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 7:38 am

If you go slower on the slow days you will have more energy to go faster on the fast days. This is the fundamental basis of training and will be an issue for your ego to accept but it's all about focusing on your end goal and not short term satisfaction that ultimately will lead you astray from where you want to be.
Ok, this makes sense. You're right, I need to adjust my thinking and expectations. Build the base first. On it.

Thanks again to you all for the advice. Hopefully I can check back in here in a few months with some progress reports for you.
Post more often, maybe once a week. This keeps you accountable :wink: kidding, but it can help.

lostdog54
Paddler
Posts: 6
Joined: May 14th, 2020, 10:56 am

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by lostdog54 » June 19th, 2020, 9:02 am


Post more often, maybe once a week. This keeps you accountable :wink: kidding, but it can help.
I think you're spot on actually. Having anything at all to tie you to working out is great motivation. Like I mentioned above, I have lost a bunch of weight so far in the last year, but actually didn't start improving my fitness level until I really started exercising - rowing and walking/jogging. And I didn't start really doing those things until I bought myself a Garmin watch. The extra spur to get badges, compete in challenges, track my progress etc. has been enough to keep me engaged. So hopefully hanging around here with updates will help too.

On that note, I logged 45 mins yesterday at an avg HR of 132, with a max of just 138. I think I was right where I need to be in terms of rate. It's indeed challenging to find a pace and effort level to stay there though. The body really wants to dig in more.

lostdog54
Paddler
Posts: 6
Joined: May 14th, 2020, 10:56 am

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by lostdog54 » July 20th, 2020, 2:58 pm

Ok, next question.... :)

How should my power curve look while working this lightly? I'm noticing that it's extremely flat, and any time I focus and try and make sure it at least has a consistent 'curve' shape, my HR starts climbing higher than my target (125-130ish).

The only way I can keep both going is to drop down to like 15-16 SPM, which seems really really slow.

Thoughts?

User avatar
Citroen
SpamTeam
Posts: 6719
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:28 pm
Location: A small cave in deepest darkest Basingstoke, UK

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by Citroen » July 20th, 2020, 3:46 pm

lostdog54 wrote:
July 20th, 2020, 2:58 pm
... my HR starts climbing higher than my target (125-130ish).
How did you come up with that seriously low target? When I was your age my recovery HR (during HR intervals) was 120.

lostdog54
Paddler
Posts: 6
Joined: May 14th, 2020, 10:56 am

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by lostdog54 » July 20th, 2020, 4:54 pm

https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

With a max of 178 and a resting rate of 55 (based on what my garmin watch tells me every day) that calculator shows my UT2 range to be 123-141. I just try to keep it around 130 ish so if I happen to get a little higher, I'm still within the range.

Am I doing that incorrectly, or should I be targeting higher?

User avatar
Citroen
SpamTeam
Posts: 6719
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:28 pm
Location: A small cave in deepest darkest Basingstoke, UK

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by Citroen » July 20th, 2020, 5:53 pm

lostdog54 wrote:
July 20th, 2020, 4:54 pm
https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

With a max of 178 and a resting rate of 55 (based on what my garmin watch tells me every day) that calculator shows my UT2 range to be 123-141. I just try to keep it around 130 ish so if I happen to get a little higher, I'm still within the range.

Am I doing that incorrectly, or should I be targeting higher?
Use this: https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator
Ignore the UT2 band, that's a warm-up / warm-down pace. Every workout should be UT1 or worse.

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 4540
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by Dangerscouse » July 21st, 2020, 5:21 am

lostdog54 wrote:
July 20th, 2020, 4:54 pm
https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

With a max of 178 and a resting rate of 55 (based on what my garmin watch tells me every day) that calculator shows my UT2 range to be 123-141. I just try to keep it around 130 ish so if I happen to get a little higher, I'm still within the range.

Am I doing that incorrectly, or should I be targeting higher?
If your target is weight loss 130ish is a great target for most of your sessions but I'd still advise that you do some harder distances too that push your HR to circa 90-95% eg 4 x 8 mins, two mins rest and a 90% HR target to dictate the pace.

My max HR is similar, and RHR is a bit less, and I use 125-130 as my standard HR target for my longer distances
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:25; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

User avatar
Citroen
SpamTeam
Posts: 6719
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:28 pm
Location: A small cave in deepest darkest Basingstoke, UK

Re: Need help understanding where I should be training

Post by Citroen » July 21st, 2020, 6:45 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 5:21 am
lostdog54 wrote:
July 20th, 2020, 4:54 pm
https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

With a max of 178 and a resting rate of 55 (based on what my garmin watch tells me every day) that calculator shows my UT2 range to be 123-141. I just try to keep it around 130 ish so if I happen to get a little higher, I'm still within the range.

Am I doing that incorrectly, or should I be targeting higher?
If your target is weight loss 130ish is a great target for most of your sessions but I'd still advise that you do some harder distances too that push your HR to circa 90-95% eg 4 x 8 mins, two mins rest and a 90% HR target to dictate the pace.

My max HR is similar, and RHR is a bit less, and I use 125-130 as my standard HR target for my longer distances
That's not a good comparison, you're 6'4" (so you gain with drive length) and not overweight.

Post Reply