Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » March 25th, 2024, 9:27 am

RolandG wrote:
March 24th, 2024, 11:38 am

your premise that "lions don’t warm up" shows that you don’t know enough about lions or warming up. Predatory cats (and other animals) stretch and move a lot more than humans throughout the day, so they are warmed up.
Thankyou RolandG for your thoughtful and intelligent response.

In reference to the above quote: Yes, mammals stretch, but if faced with sudden danger no mammal stretches and does warm-ups before fleeing. If they did they would be dead. So evolution favours mammals (and humans are mammals) who have the ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up.

In reference to your whales-can-hold-their-breath-for-a-long-time analogy: How can I refute such brilliance? But I'll try. If humans had taken to the water early in their development then breath-holding for lengthy periods would be a survival advantage for humans too. But humans stayed on land so what is a survival advantage for whales is not an advantage for humans.

Again, thanks for your comments. Your insights are always welcome.

RolandG
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by RolandG » March 25th, 2024, 11:01 am

This is in all probability my last post on this issue, as I have better things to do with my time than arguing with Dunning-Kruger afflicted.

Your pointless sarcasm and moving goalposts aside, where are the citations for your claims? Where is the research that comes to the same conclusions?

Sakly
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Sakly » March 25th, 2024, 12:11 pm

RolandG wrote:
March 25th, 2024, 11:01 am
This is in all probability my last post on this issue, as I have better things to do with my time than arguing with Dunning-Kruger afflicted.

Your pointless sarcasm and moving goalposts aside, where are the citations for your claims? Where is the research that comes to the same conclusions?
Now you know, why I stopped arguing 😊
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » March 26th, 2024, 8:53 am

RolandG wrote:
March 25th, 2024, 11:01 am
moving goalposts
I have not moved the goalposts. In my March 24 post, to aid in your understanding, I succinctly stated my argument in the form of a syllogism. That argument has remained consistent throughout this thread. In response, you have made some angry noises, as have others here, but have presented no valid refutation. Sakly, on March 20, stated that he had counter arguments but he "won't discuss them" with me. Thanks Sakly and RolandG for my morning smile.

RolandG
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by RolandG » March 26th, 2024, 11:34 am

Sakly wrote:
March 25th, 2024, 12:11 pm

Now you know, why I stopped arguing 😊
Yeah, you’re right. I just hope readers of this thread get the point that they shouldn’t base their decision whether to warm up on some "Because lions!" nonsense, for which the lone advocate has provided neither evidence nor respectable sources.

Sakly
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Sakly » March 26th, 2024, 12:54 pm

RolandG wrote:
March 26th, 2024, 11:34 am
Sakly wrote:
March 25th, 2024, 12:11 pm

Now you know, why I stopped arguing 😊
Yeah, you’re right. I just hope readers of this thread get the point that they shouldn’t base their decision whether to warm up on some "Because lions!" nonsense, for which the lone advocate has provided neither evidence nor respectable sources.
I think (or at least hope) anybody coming along this thread will have the mental capabilities to get it right 😄
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

mjhatten
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by mjhatten » April 10th, 2024, 1:34 pm

I warm up with a short weight session that seems to loosen up my tight muscles and get my heart primed for some cardio. I use two 20# dumbbells. I do 12 reps of this exercise set -- standing row -> Romanian dead lift -> hammer curl -> overhead press. I finish off with a dozen push ups. That feels like about the right amount to get this 76 year-old guy ready to sweat.

... and I don't care about lions.

gvcormac
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by gvcormac » April 10th, 2024, 5:59 pm

I warm up for rowing by rowing gently.

I wam up for cycling by cycling slowly.

I warm up for skiing by skiing gently.

I warm up for running by running slowly.

I warm up for resistance training by doing a lighter version of the same movements.

I warm up for plyometrics/sprints by doing gentle versions of the same.

Except for resistance/plyometrics/sprints, I generally don't do an explicit pre-workout warmup. I just take it easy at the beginning. Only for time trials/races/hiit do I do a separated warmup.

I was never a fan of pre-exercise stretches, and stopped going through the motions about 30 years ago.

Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » April 11th, 2024, 7:03 am

mjhatten wrote:
April 10th, 2024, 1:34 pm
That feels like about the right amount to get this 76 year-old guy ready to sweat.
... and I don't care about lions.
Very good. But do you understand my argument? Others here had difficulty so for their benefit I stated my argument in the form of a syllogism ( March 24, near the bottom of page 2).

p_b82
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by p_b82 » April 11th, 2024, 7:38 am

It's not that people don't understand your argument.

It is that your argument is flawed and serves zero purpose in helping to answer the OP's question when you diverged from it comparing humans sat on a rowing machine to lions via natural selection.

Summarising your point to take out the inane reference to lions it is simply: "I don't do any warm-ups as I don't think it's needed - this one study/person backs up my thinking"

Why can't you just give it a rest?
M 6'4 born:'82
PB's
'23: 6k=25:23.5, HM=1:36:08.0, 30'=7,077m, 60'=13,702m
'24: 500m=1:37.7, 2k=7:44.80, 5k=20:42.9, 10k=42:13.1, FM=3:18:35.4
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jamesg
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Location: Trentino Italy

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by jamesg » April 11th, 2024, 10:06 am

Whatever we say, we can't avoid getting hot if we pull that handle.

Those who say they don't warm up, how's it done, by rowing in the freezer or under cold water? Even just my 100W would heat my 80kg by 6C in an hour, if I didn't find a way to cool off. It only takes us our basic metabolic 20W (100kCalh) to stay 15C above environment temperature.

Most work at around 200W which is over 800kCal/h: at 80kg, heat for +2C is delivered in 12 minutes. As we well know.

Lucky the lions; if it's already 45C in the shade, who needs to warm up anyway?
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg. Last seen MHR 140.
2024: stroke 6 W-min @ 20-21. No times yet, now using WODs.

Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » April 11th, 2024, 6:22 pm

p_b82 wrote:
April 11th, 2024, 7:38 am
It's not that people don't understand your argument.

Why can't you just give it a rest?
Thankyou b82 for your courteous response.

Scan a few scientific papers on the benefit of warm-ups and you will find statements such as: "It is not known whether warm-up is of benefit, of potential harm, or having no effect on individual's performance." and, "There is insufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine warm-up prior to physical activity to prevent injury." and, "Short duration static stretching warm-up has no effect on power outcomes." and, "Definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up...etc."

So, why is it, in scientific studies, that "definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up"? Maybe, b82, it is because that is how we have evolved: In human pre-history the ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up would have offered a survival advantage, and therefore this ability would be favoured by Darwinian natural selection, and over aeons, would become an ubiquitous human trait. This is a good possible reason the scientific research on the value of warm-ups is inconclusive, don't you think?

jamesg
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by jamesg » April 12th, 2024, 2:34 am

"definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up"
The human mind is deep and mysterious. I can remember being bombed in 1945, my wife too. But Warmup serves mostly to remind us how we did it yesterday, which is easily forgotten, and use again if it went well. Habit.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg. Last seen MHR 140.
2024: stroke 6 W-min @ 20-21. No times yet, now using WODs.

Tsnor
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Tsnor » April 14th, 2024, 8:44 pm

Sakly wrote:
March 19th, 2024, 4:14 am
The latest research I know is to use dynamic stretches of short time to prime muscles and joints before workouts, as this increases performance....
I really don't want to necro this thread but really do want to get a pointer to the research Sakly cites. Please don't respond to the thread content.

The stuff I've seen says
--"warm up reduces risk of injury" with tons of supporting data. Think this not a surprise.
--"stretching before exercising does not reduce injury risk and does reduce performance"

Stretching not preventing injuries was a surprise to me but the evidence seems conclusive. And yet professional football players who have very professional trainers are seen stretching before a game. I'm hoping Sakly's ref can close the gap for me.

(Here are a dozen studies that say stretching makes you slower. Expand the description. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1wjkdGouMk )

Sakly
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Sakly » April 15th, 2024, 1:20 am

Tsnor wrote:
April 14th, 2024, 8:44 pm
Sakly wrote:
March 19th, 2024, 4:14 am
The latest research I know is to use dynamic stretches of short time to prime muscles and joints before workouts, as this increases performance....
I really don't want to necro this thread but really do want to get a pointer to the research Sakly cites. Please don't respond to the thread content.
I don't have a link to a recent study, I only remember some shorts/videos by Squat University (very recommendable channel with lots of information about mobility, stability and training tips) referring to such studies. I can try to search and get a reference to link to.
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

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