Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

From the CRASH-B's to an online challenge, discuss the competitive side of erging here.
Zuman
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Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Zuman » January 1st, 2020, 4:20 pm

I was a bit flabbergasted by Gensen Palmer's Holiday Challenge total of 2,372,000 meters, so I emailed him to ask how he did it.
Here's what he did:
- 50,000 meters/day for the first few days;
- 100,000 to 200,000 meters/day after he started to feel good about the distances;
- 3 to 4 sessions a day;
- 10 to 16 hours total time rowing each day.
He's a great guy and very encouraging to mere mortals like me (218,000 meters during the Challenge).
-Mike

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Carl Watts
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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Carl Watts » January 1st, 2020, 11:33 pm

There is a reason why the challenges need to be verified. Now with the arrival of ErgData there is yet another method of verification and this one is probably the best.

Is his Concept 2 LogBook open for all to see ? are all the meters verified ? do I even need to waste my time checking ?

If its not verified, it never happened, its that simple.

I really look forward to the day that all the challenges are verified meters only or at least there is a verified meters only set of results available for that challenge so you can do a sort and get rid of the rubbish and find your true standing. That will be the day I will be prepared to put in the effort to join one again.
Carl Watts.
Age:53 Weight: 104kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Zuman » January 2nd, 2020, 12:14 am

I'm saddened that you feel that way. Why would anyone misrepresent something like that? They don't gain anything.
I certainly disagree with you that "if it's not verified it never happened." I only started verifying my workouts myself when I started using Ergdata and it became automatic. Before that it was just no big deal to me, and the log was just a convenient place to keep data.
I guess I just can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be honest. It's not like people are throwing money at them or organizing parades!

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by lindsayh » January 2nd, 2020, 6:12 am

Zuman wrote:
January 2nd, 2020, 12:14 am
I'm saddened that you feel that way. Why would anyone misrepresent something like that? They don't gain anything.
I certainly disagree with you that "if it's not verified it never happened." I only started verifying my workouts myself when I started using Ergdata and it became automatic. Before that it was just no big deal to me, and the log was just a convenient place to keep data.
I guess I just can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be honest. It's not like people are throwing money at them or organizing parades!
Don't worry too much you have just thrown a leg over Carl's big hobby horse. There are a number of people who have genuinely logged these "mad" numbers. The most I have seen is >3million in a month logged by Darlene Brennan - C2 actually have interviewed her on this site and there is no doubt that she has done it a number of times. I agree - there is absolutely no point in lying about it. Darlene's are all witnessed.
(I do however support verification of ranking times and distances at the top)
Lindsay
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PBs (65y+) 1 min 349m, 500m 1:29.8, 1k 3:11.7 2k 6:47.4, 5km 18:07.9, 30' 7928m, 10k 37:57.2, 60' 15368m

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jackarabit
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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by jackarabit » January 2nd, 2020, 11:24 am

There is a crucial difference between outliers and outright liars. The efforts of outliers survive scrutiny. Curious resonance between Carl’s view that if it isn’t verified it didn’t happen and my good friend Lindsay’s that if not a “top” effort (top 3, top 10, top 100?) it doesn't matter. :lol: Life is an ordering. Embrace it or get out of Dodge! Takes but one cuckoo (vide “Cikan Vuz”) to spoil the hatch. Single standard or none at all!

Yes, I have heard the argument that folks do the participation challenges just for fun. If you’re the sort that thinks 16 hrs. a day on an erg is simply a matter of personal satisfaction, why would you allow C2 to place your name and meters rowed in what sure looks to me to be a ranking?
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

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Carl Watts
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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Carl Watts » January 2nd, 2020, 6:30 pm

Look its really really simple let me explain it to you.

If you want to be taken seriously and why wouldn't you if your putting in all the effort and busting a gut, you buy a PM5, you get Ergdata on your phone and setup an open Concept 2 LogBook so anyone can see your results right down to your heartrate which makes running some kind of relay that much harder.

Even then the verified results are not 100%, with a bit of knowledge on how the rower monitor works (after over 10 years now of repairing them) I can set verified world records if I really wanted to, but its now a whole lot harder to fake the results for the average person.

The technology to be verified has existed on the PM3 since 2003, and the verifiable options have only increased since then. Its about time the Challenges made full use of it, or at the very least give those who want to use the verification system like ErgData some respect in the results with a fully verified rowers results list.

At the very least Concept 2 should consider running ONE verified Challenge a year, I personally think the results would be very interesting, not only for the distances but also who is and who is NOT entering the Challenge.
Carl Watts.
Age:53 Weight: 104kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Zuman » January 2nd, 2020, 8:22 pm

Oh, I understand what you're saying and don't need you to explain it to me, Carl. It's just not how I choose to live my life (I'd rather take people at their word until I have a reason not to).
I guess we have a Schrodinger's Cat situation: Forgetting Gensen Palmer's monumental accomplishment, my own daily meters in the Holiday Challenge aren't publicly viewable at the moment, so they simply didn't happen according to one perspective. On the other hand, if anyone wants me to send them a link for any given day of their choosing during the Challenge, I'll change the access for that day and they'll see that they ARE verified, and therefore they DID occur! Simply opening the box determines the status, and erging enters the quantum realm!
Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just think the world is a better place when we're not cynical.

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jackarabit
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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by jackarabit » January 3rd, 2020, 2:22 am

Carl writes:
At the very least Concept 2 should consider running ONE verified Challenge a year, I personally think the results would be very interesting, not only for the distances but also who is and who is NOT entering the Challenge.
Excellent suggestion, Carl. The sort for verified only would also work for me as it does in the pace-prioritized rankings. In all cases, the masochist, the delusional, the exhibitionist, the tall talker, ED has certainly made it convenient to provide at least the smell of fish in the fish story. Nobody of course needs to feel compelled to prove anything to anybody. And anybody need not feel compelled to respect nobody whose publicly recognized accomplishments must be taken on blind faith in what is said to have happened in private.
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

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Yankeerunner
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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Yankeerunner » January 13th, 2020, 12:14 pm

I'm with Carl all the way here. The issue has been discussed before and for some reason I can't fathom a lot of people staunchly defend unverified nearly-superhuman submissions.

As for my esteemed teammate Lindsay's query about why someone would do it when they have nothing to gain, I have no definitive answer, but it happens. It probably happens for much the same reason that vandals destroy other people's property when they have nothing to gain. Why some people like to 'rain on other people's parades' when then have nothing to gain. Why some people are racists when they have nothing to gain. Etc, etc. etc. I can't explain any of those people either, but I know that some people do those things.

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Cyclingman1 » January 13th, 2020, 6:27 pm

I don't want to be obsessed about it, but, in general, verified distances and times are needed for any sort of competition or ranking. At least for those at or near the top, whether that be times for rankings or meters for challenges. I suppose Concept 2 could do it under the covers for challenges, because ordinarily one's daily meters are not available. Nor, do I want my daily meters to be available. I just do not want the critique that will most assuredly come from some quarters. Not casting stones here. I do have a couple of non-verified rankings from Just Rows. Hope to clean those up after racing season.

Right now, I'm dealing with a gentleman who ranks in the top two of most 70+ HWT distances, who cannot possibly be legit. He's made superhuman gains in the last 8 months, all as a person weighing in at 166lb. Which in itself is a puzzle. Why wouldn't one lose 1 lb or claim to be 165 lb to get into the LWt category. [I'm sure many LWts occasionally stray over 165lb by a couple of lbs] Many of his times would be or near LWt WRs. The person has never posted a verified time across all distances since joining 2 yrs ago. He is within a few meters of TJO on a couple of postings - not remotely possible. He has been asked to post verified times. The answer is Nope. It is slightly perturbing. I think for the most part long time good athletes know the need for honesty in sports. If not, one is just fooling one's self and it will catch up. But for newbies, some of them have no clue about the legitimacy of performance. It does not bother those few at all to cheat. Need I say Rosie Ruiz.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 74, 76", 195lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-74: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:33.3 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Dangerscouse » January 14th, 2020, 7:25 am

Yankeerunner wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 12:14 pm
I'm with Carl all the way here. The issue has been discussed before and for some reason I can't fathom a lot of people staunchly defend unverified nearly-superhuman submissions.

As for my esteemed teammate Lindsay's query about why someone would do it when they have nothing to gain, I have no definitive answer, but it happens. It probably happens for much the same reason that vandals destroy other people's property when they have nothing to gain. Why some people like to 'rain on other people's parades' when then have nothing to gain. Why some people are racists when they have nothing to gain. Etc, etc. etc. I can't explain any of those people either, but I know that some people do those things.
Very true and good post. The human psyche is a very esoteric part of our understanding and we all judge people by our own yardstick, as we struggle to comprehend actions that can never be contemplated by us.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Cyclist2 » January 14th, 2020, 12:12 pm

On a practical level, you'd think C2 would want verified meters, since they are paying money for those meters. I get that donating to a charity is a worthy thing, and C2 likely does not worry about it, but still, if it was me, I'd want to know I was "getting my money's worth".
Mark Underwood. Rower first, cyclist too.

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Carl Watts
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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Carl Watts » January 14th, 2020, 4:10 pm

On a more positive note I have joined this months January Challenge for the RowPro team. Its been a really really long time since joining one of these because about 525,000m in a month couldn't even get me at the top of the Team rankings (only 2 in the top 10 had verified meters) but I notice now that more and more people are now opening up their LogBook and are completing verified meters which is great to see.

Really its up to Concept 2 to fix the problem, it could be done very quickly. Only verified meters count and your LogBook would be made to be "Open" for anyone to see for the 30 day duration of the Challenge and only for those 30 days.Problem solved. The old excuse that "I only have a PM2 monitor" is now getting a bit old, time you bought a new monitor.

Personally I don't understand why anyone wouldn't run an open LogBook 24/7 365 days a year like I do. Sure you have your good days and your bad days, slow cool downs and recovery rows included but Hey the Challenges are only all about the total meters anyway and those at the top are rowing REALLY REALLY SLOW but it still gets pretty hard to prove your rowing like 10 to 16 hours a day non stop for 30 days straight so you need to prove it. You only need to do the math on the seat time and it becomes impossible when your rowing at near 3:00min/500m pace, just not enough hours in a day.
Carl Watts.
Age:53 Weight: 104kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by Nomath » January 14th, 2020, 5:53 pm

Carl Watts wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 4:10 pm
... You only need to do the math on the seat time and it becomes impossible when your rowing at near 3:00min/500m pace, just not enough hours in a day.
Hey, let's check the math! At a pace of 3min/500m you do 10K/hour. So for 2,372,000 meter you need 237 hrs. The Holiday Challenge lasts between Nov-26 and Dec-24, that is 29 days. So you need about 8 hrs/day, 7 days a week. It's a tough challenge, but not impossible !

According to the C2 pace-to-watts calculator the intensity amounts to 60W. I know several touring cyclists who are cycling 8 hrs a day at about 100W. In my view outdoor scenery is more rewarding, but Netflix can be your indoor friend.

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Re: Gensen Palmer's 2,372,000 m Holiday Challenge

Post by jackarabit » January 15th, 2020, 12:46 am

Nomath checks the math. Gotta luvit.
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