ErgData average HR solutions?

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bobsacamano
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ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by bobsacamano » October 13th, 2021, 5:17 pm

Hi All:

I think it is pretty well known that ErgData doesn't provide an Average HR for any intervals, and instead it just spits out the final HR at the instant the interval ends.

When the data are imported into Strava, then you do get both a Max HR and an Average HR, but unfortunately it is the average for the entire workout, and Strava doesn't provide averages for each programmed interval.

Has anyone found a solution to this beyond downloading the data into excel and manually calculating average HR for intervals?

jamesg
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by jamesg » October 14th, 2021, 1:54 am

ErgData doesn't provide an Average HR
HR at around 2/3 of any steady piece will be close to average.

But maybe HR is considered useless for rowing, if not worse. We have to pull a long hard stroke anyway, whatever the result, so use rating as governor.
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 158 in 2k = 220 - 77% of age.
2021-2: stroke 6 W-min. ½k 1:55.5; 1k 4:09.2; 2k 8:42.2; 5k 23:15; 30' 6247; 10k 49:36.

bobsacamano
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by bobsacamano » October 14th, 2021, 9:06 am

Sorry, but it is ridiculous to say that HR is useless (if not worse) for rowing, or that rating is entirely equivalent.

In any case, I didn't ask a question about the utility of HR as a training tool. If you want to talk about that, perhaps we can create a different thread in the training section. I intentionally asked this in the 'Ergdata & other software' section to avoid this kind of debate and so that the discussion could be focused on the question of whether anyone has found any good technical solutions to a known limitation in ErgData.

jamesg
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by jamesg » October 14th, 2021, 11:38 am

There might be watches that can show you your average HR during work. Ex-post would not be much use. Ergdata and PM show average Watts and Pace during the work, which is sufficient for rowing.
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 158 in 2k = 220 - 77% of age.
2021-2: stroke 6 W-min. ½k 1:55.5; 1k 4:09.2; 2k 8:42.2; 5k 23:15; 30' 6247; 10k 49:36.

bobsacamano
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by bobsacamano » October 14th, 2021, 12:27 pm

:roll:

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Carl Watts
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by Carl Watts » October 14th, 2021, 4:55 pm

Not sure why everyone runs into some of the problems seen here, I think people overcomplicate things.

When setting up your rows you can change the number of splits to a maximum of 52 on the PM5 so thats plenty of data points for anything I do.

The only real reason to get fixated on HR is if your trying to compare two almost identical rows to one another, so again the HR result is fine.

I have bigger problems with getting a decent signal from the HR strap with no dropouts and rowing at a constant spm or total number of strokes for the row than the average HR result in the top line of the PM5.

The way the HR is derived in the first place is not accurate to begin with. HR is very slow frequency wise so you have to sample for a fixed period of say 6 seconds and then multiply by 10 and hopefully nowdays use some math to improve the accuracy.
Carl Watts.
Age:54 Weight: 108kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

bobsacamano
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by bobsacamano » October 14th, 2021, 6:17 pm

Carl Watts wrote:
October 14th, 2021, 4:55 pm
When setting up your rows you can change the number of splits to a maximum of 52 on the PM5 so thats plenty of data points for anything I do.
I'm not sure I see how this helps me get the Average HR over a set piece or interval. That would just give me 52 data points to manually average instead of the finer grained data I can get from downloading the original file from the logbook. Not having to do this averaging manually is what I'm looking to solve.
Carl Watts wrote:
October 14th, 2021, 4:55 pm
The only real reason to get fixated on HR is if your trying to compare two almost identical rows to one another, so again the HR result is fine.
So, there are quite a few reasons (and ways!) to use HR in training, and just having the final ping as representative of the HR throughout an entire piece is not all that helpful. But, again, why can't we leave this discussion of the merits of using HR as a tool to a thread in the training section? I find it odd that folks seem to want to hijack threads with simple questions into discussions and editorials about their own pet theories of something. I get it - people have different views on how useful HR is for training. I like using it, and I'm not particularly unique. Providing average HR is pretty standard on basically every other platform. I'd be happy to discuss the pros/cons of HR in training someplace, but for now I'm really just looking for an answer to the question as to whether anyone has found a good technical workaround.
Carl Watts wrote:
October 14th, 2021, 4:55 pm
I have bigger problems with getting a decent signal from the HR strap with no dropouts and rowing at a constant spm or total number of strokes for the row than the average HR result in the top line of the PM5.
Oh. Cool. I don't have this problem.
Carl Watts wrote:
October 14th, 2021, 4:55 pm
The way the HR is derived in the first place is not accurate to begin with. HR is very slow frequency wise so you have to sample for a fixed period of say 6 seconds and then multiply by 10 and hopefully nowdays use some math to improve the accuracy.
I'm not sure this is either accurate or relevant. My Garmin HR strap measures HR multiple times/second. ErgData then collects and records the HR every time you take a stroke. It just doesn't save all that information on the PM5, nor does it summarize it in the data presentation in the logbook (except in the graph of continuous HR change vs sr vs pace/watts). To use this excellent data that is already collected, it is necessary to download the .csv file and then manually manipulate it or upload it someplace else. I'm really just wondering if anyone out there has found a way to automate this (i.e., what other software makes better use of this data where we can push the ErgData to? As I mentioned, Strava goes part way in providing an average HR for the entire workout, but it doesn't let you see it for set portions/sections/intervals of a single workout).

Tsnor
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by Tsnor » October 14th, 2021, 10:47 pm

bobsacamano wrote:
October 13th, 2021, 5:17 pm
Hi All:

I think it is pretty well known that ErgData doesn't provide an Average HR for any intervals, and instead it just spits out the final HR at the instant the interval ends.

When the data are imported into Strava, then you do get both a Max HR and an Average HR, but unfortunately it is the average for the entire workout, and Strava doesn't provide averages for each programmed interval.

Has anyone found a solution to this beyond downloading the data into excel and manually calculating average HR for intervals?
You have the solution I use "downloading the data into excel" although I don't use excel.

I download the stroke rate data into a spread sheet. Measured Heart Rate is reported for every stroke. I usually graph the data and eyeball the curves but you could easily average the HR data. This would give you a perfect average.

Note that perfect average is not very useful for short intervals. Your heartrate lags the work effort so for a 30 to 90 second interval max heart rate is probably more useful than average for figuring out how much load you hit.

EDIT: the last paragraph was not really clear. By looking at the heart rate graph it's much easier to identify heartrate drift and to compare workout vs using a number like average or max. Take a look at any intense interval workout that had fairly constant splits. Say 90 seconds on at a 1:40 split with 60 seconds rest. Your heart rate graphed over the period will be a rising set of peaks with each interval (which does the same work) showing a significantly higher heart rate even if you rest long enough to have the same starting heart rate).

bobsacamano
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by bobsacamano » October 15th, 2021, 11:35 am

You have the solution I use "downloading the data into excel" although I don't use excel.

I download the stroke rate data into a spread sheet. Measured Heart Rate is reported for every stroke. I usually graph the data and eyeball the curves but you could easily average the HR data. This would give you a perfect average.
Yes, as I said, I already do this, it is just a bit of a PITA. But it works.
Note that perfect average is not very useful for short intervals. Your heartrate lags the work effort so for a 30 to 90 second interval max heart rate is probably more useful than average for figuring out how much load you hit.

EDIT: the last paragraph was not really clear. By looking at the heart rate graph it's much easier to identify heartrate drift and to compare workout vs using a number like average or max. Take a look at any intense interval workout that had fairly constant splits. Say 90 seconds on at a 1:40 split with 60 seconds rest. Your heart rate graphed over the period will be a rising set of peaks with each interval (which does the same work) showing a significantly higher heart rate even if you rest long enough to have the same starting heart rate).
Yes, I don't use Average HR for short intervals.

In any case, it seems that the best solution might be rowsandall. It is free, can import ergdata, and with a little bit of fiddling (programmed rest intervals don't come over unless you continue paddling), it can produce nice graphical and tabular summaries that include splits, pace, power, spm, AvgHR, MaxHR

Tsnor
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by Tsnor » October 15th, 2021, 3:52 pm

bobsacamano wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 11:35 am
...
In any case, it seems that the best solution might be rowsandall. It is free, can import ergdata, and with a little bit of fiddling (programmed rest intervals don't come over unless you continue paddling), it can produce nice graphical and tabular summaries that include splits, pace, power, spm, AvgHR, MaxHR
excellent. glad you found something that might work. In a few months maybe you can post a follow-up and say what you did/didn't like about it.

bobsacamano
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Re: ErgData average HR solutions?

Post by bobsacamano » October 15th, 2021, 5:01 pm

Sure. Happy to.

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