Zwift rowing bike

[jmbloom]

I have rowed millions of meters on RowPro, but have switched to biking on Zwift because it is more fun, engaging, and I love the Zwift races and fondos. For those you don't know what Zwift is, they are a massive multiplayer bicycling simulator that you hook up a smart trainer to, with fairly modern graphic, has drafting, and has multiple group rides and races every hour. It is not uncommon to see over 10,000 online at once on Zwift.

Zwift is contemplating adding rowing. However, instead of adding on water rowing, I think they should add a rowing bike simulator. For those that don't know what a rowing bike is, here is a video of one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMZSwYf7jxQ . With a rowing bike you could have group rows, drafting, the fun of going down and up hill, plus pack racing. This would be something totally unique and would be much more fun than an online water simulator. Moreover, the implementation of a rowing bike should be much easier for Zwift.

So why I am I writing this on a Concept 2 forum? I am trying to persuade you to go the the Zwift new feature forums and chime in. There is currently a feature suggestion to add rowing and skiing, https://forums.zwift.com/t/zwift-rowing ... g/13116/43 plus another thread which asks specifically for a rowing bike, https://forums.zwift.com/t/zwift-rowing-bike/43117.

[Carl Watts]

As a RowPro user for 10 years I wouldn't shift to Zwift unless it had the "on the water" set-up of RowPro.

Personally the graphics of RowPro has never bothered me much, but the complete lack of online participation is a problem.

Is Zwift pretty much online only ? with up to 10,000 online it sounds like it. RP made the mistake of offering a package with an offline rowing option.

Yes swift sounds great but the advantage of RowPro is its a level playing field and there are no manual "Tweeks" to compensate like those trying to turn the rower into a bike.

The graphics in Zwift certainly look good but its the number of users and online community that really makes it fly. Zwift certainly has the numbers so I can see why you would want to integrate the rower into it.

Then again before I have even finished typing this perhaps the rowing bike is a good idea much easier to integrate just this graphic into the existing roads !!! how do you make the effort on the Erg equivalent to the bike in terms of pace ?

[CJOttawa]

I'm looking forward to rowing in Zwift (as you might have seen from my posts on the topic) but we've been beating the drum for years - it's yelling at clouds at this point.

Zwift knows how small the rowing market is compared to cycling and running so it's not a priority. Latest statement from CEO Eric Min is "around Christmas 2019." They already have a Concept2 Model D rower with PM5 set up in their offices and the Concept2 BikeErg is supported natively - it's just a matter of flipping a switch. (and having an engaging "on-water" experience, in game, which is the more complicated part)

In the meantime, the NPE-CABLE pod is a hardware bridge that works flawlessly. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184763&p=461698#p461698

[jmbloom]

Carl,

Zwift does not use the wheel speed of whatever bicycle trainer you are using to calculate your speed in Zwift. Instead it takes your watts and a bunch of other factors such as your weight, height, the road gradient, and how many people you are drafting to calculate all the forces acting on you and plugs this into f=ma to calculate your acceleration and speed. If you had a rowing bike in Zwift, it would do something similar.

The big thing a rowing bike would add is pack riding and racing. When you are in the draft of other riders, wind resistance is usually 25% to 35% less than if you are riding solo. This encourages riders to form groups.

A rowing bike would also equalize heavier and lighter rowers, since when you go uphill, your speed is largely determined by how many watts per kilogram you can produce.

[jmbloom]

CJOttowa,

If Zwift added a rowing bike, the implementation would be much simpler than having building an on water rowing simulator. Moreover, the row biking with its pack riding dynamics and the ability to ride up and down hills, would be much more fun and compelling than a flat water rowing simulator.

I have been tempted to try the bridge, but I would much prefer seeing a rower on screen.

[Carl Watts]

It looks like it could be fun, the only problem is you cannot take any racing seriously if people are plugging in their own numbers in terms of their weight etc. Sounds great for a bit of fun however as you cannot beat exercising with a large number of people, the interactive experience keeps you motivated. RowPro is transformed as soon as you have all 16 lanes full, its an immersive experience. Its just never hit the critical mass in terms of numbers rowing online and this is not because of the number of ergs their are worldwide its just rowers don't have that peloton mentality.

[jmbloom]

Carl,

You are correct that weight doping is a potential problem. It probably happens occasionally on Zwift now, but the vast majority of people are honest. Some racers on Zwift are now recording their weigh ins on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr87TVOMBkg

It is true that being part of a large RowPro row is fun. I even remember rowing a marathon with you about 6 years ago. That said, riding and racing in Zwift is even more fun.

It looks like it could be fun, the only problem is you cannot take any racing seriously if people are plugging in their own numbers in terms of their weight etc. Sounds great for a bit of fun however as you cannot beat exercising with a large number of people, the interactive experience keeps you motivated. RowPro is transformed as soon as you have all 16 lanes full, its an immersive experience. Its just never hit the critical mass in terms of numbers rowing online and this is not because of the number of ergs their are worldwide its just rowers don't have that peloton mentality.

[Carl Watts]

I would suggest a different class for what your suggesting, i.e. all "Ride" together but the results are listed separately. This would still rely on honesty but is still only really useful if everyone is only using a Concept 2 rower.

What happens when people on other types of rowers join in ? we already know the way they arrive at the number in the monitor is way off compared to that of the Concept 2. The Wattage numbers generated on a cheap rower would be worthless. This is one of the reasons RowPro is so great, its Concept 2 rowers only.

How do they currently get on with just Bikes ? there are several setups that I can see for smart trainers if I Google it. By nature your simply not going to get the wattage accuracy out of a bike trainer, there is no feedback loop or self calibration capability like there is with the rower unless you move to the Concept 2 BikeErg.

Maybe I'm out of touch, you would have to essentially drive a generator and then dump this power into a stable electronic load and measure the Voltage and Current to come up with an accurate Wattage. Any form of crude magnetic resistance in terms of a load doesn't work. Zwift then can change the load depending on the gradient of the road. Your weight then obviously becomes quite and important part of the equation as gravity is playing a part.

Its all very interesting, let us know if they get something specifically setup for the Concept 2 rower.

[jmbloom]

Concept 2 rowers are by far the most popular rowers, so I don't think Zwift needs to worry about other rowers. Moreover, as you pointed out, other rowers (e.g. the WaterRower) are notoriously inaccurate.

In the biking world, there are many trainers and power meters that have a power accuracy of 2% or less. The Tacx NEO's accuracy is 1% and I own a Wahoo Kickr which has a 2% accuracy. The Tacx NEO doesn't require calibration, but I need to run a spin down test on my Kickr every couple of weeks. It is true that there are less accurate trainers, especially wheel on trainers. At the highest level of Zwift racing (the KISS Super League) riders are required to have an accurate smart trainer. For lower level riders like me, Zwift racing is a great, fun workout, and I don't worry so much if one of my competitors doesn't have the most accurate trainer.

These are smart trainers, so yes, Zwift can change the load when you go up a hill. In fact for the Tacx Neo, Zwift is able to change the road feel, to make it feel like your are going over cobblestones, a dirt road, or even wooden boards.

I would suggest a different class for what your suggesting, i.e. all "Ride" together but the results are listed separately. This would still rely on honesty but is still only really useful if everyone is only using a Concept 2 rower.

What happens when people on other types of rowers join in ? we already know the way they arrive at the number in the monitor is way off compared to that of the Concept 2. The Wattage numbers generated on a cheap rower would be worthless. This is one of the reasons RowPro is so great, its Concept 2 rowers only.

How do they currently get on with just Bikes ? there are several setups that I can see for smart trainers if I Google it. By nature your simply not going to get the wattage accuracy out of a bike trainer, there is no feedback loop or self calibration capability like there is with the rower unless you move to the Concept 2 BikeErg.

Maybe I'm out of touch, you would have to essentially drive a generator and then dump this power into a stable electronic load and measure the Voltage and Current to come up with an accurate Wattage. Any form of crude magnetic resistance in terms of a load doesn't work. Zwift then can change the load depending on the gradient of the road. Your weight then obviously becomes quite and important part of the equation as gravity is playing a part.

Its all very interesting, let us know if they get something specifically setup for the Concept 2 rower.

[Carl Watts]

All very interesting stuff.

I was interested in how power on a bike compared to power on the Erg and how it translated into speed.

I'm pretty heavy and have a nasty high frontal area but when I ride on the odd occasion 30km/hr along a flat road is pretty much it for me on say a 30minute ride.

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Coincidentally I typically train on the rower for 30 minutes also at about 200W.

There are so many variables in making a fair translation between a rower and 4 wheel bike but I have to admit it would be a very interesting project for Zwift. One advantage is your going forward on the bike, this is something I never gave much though to when it came to rowing on the water when I tried OTW I HATED going backwards. There were a few people in a racing Kyak on the lake and I though yep, thats for me.

How do you come up with that fudge factor for the rower to equate to equal effort for the same speed ? Hamish Bond has gone from being the top rower in the world but far from the top cyclist in the world for example. The rower is a totally different action and I would have though a less efficient one as well. Unless you can keep up with your 2 wheel friends using the same "Perceived Effort" as some on here like to call it, then its not going to be much fun.

[Carl Watts]

Just read your Zwift post. I don't think the rowing bike will have a lower drag coefficient. 4 wheels instead of 2 and the time spend upright rather than down on handles the whole time sucks. Also way more drivetrain losses, still that really doesn't matter at the end of the day because its not in the real world and its all just down to the fudge factor and your weight.

Should please a few people on here that argue about their weight not being considered on the Erg. Still there is the bigger problem of height on the Erg and that will still translate to faster times on the rowing bike if its not factored in.

[johnlvs2run]

In the biking world, there are many trainers and power meters that have a power accuracy of 2% or less. The Tacx NEO's accuracy is 1% and I own a Wahoo Kickr which has a 2% accuracy. The Tacx NEO doesn't require calibration, but I need to run a spin down test on my Kickr every couple of weeks. It is true that there are less accurate trainers, especially wheel on trainers. At the highest level of Zwift racing (the KISS Super League) riders are required to have an accurate smart trainer. For lower level riders like me, Zwift racing is a great, fun workout, and I don't worry so much if one of my competitors doesn't have the most accurate trainer.

I'd be quite interested to use Zwift and similar programs with my bike, and also with my Skierg, which I use much more than the bike. Currently my bike drives a wind trainer in back, with speed, cadence and so on, but I've been thinking of getting a Stac Zero with power meter to use Zwift. I'd like using an option to do solitary runs and time trials on the Skierg, perhaps like using roller skis, and to also do group rides and group competitions.