Getting 4x2K down to target pace

[Mike Caviston]

with all due respect: even if 'the' information is in there, it is only one opinion (be it yours and therefore a well educated one). Other people may have other opinions and even though you may not consider them worthy of your time, I do. I believe Pete Marston prefers to decrease the interval length (1800 meter or so) to be able to keep 5K PB pace. That's another opinion. And there may be more.

I have read the entire WP document, but I made no effort to learn it by heart. I don't follow the WP. Like Tom said: I just want to get my 4x2K down to target pace and I'm interested in other peoples advice. The WP happens to mention a target pace, that's the only reason for even mentioning the WP. Paul and others mention slightly deviating target paces. I'd be happy getting down (consistently) to either one of them.

Again, I apologize if I offended you with my response. I respect everyone’s right to solicit as many opinions as they want. I do confess to at times being a little puzzled at the criteria some people apparently use to evaluate opinions, but that’s neither here nor there. I have no particular incentive (certainly not financial) to encourage anyone to follow the WP, but I would like to make sure references to the WP are accurate. You specifically mentioned the Wolverine Plan with regards to pacing the 4 x 2K workout. I have discussed each of the four options you listed in some detail, as well as other pitfalls associated with target paces, and if you care for my opinion you know where to look. In any event, good luck with your training.

[Gerhard]

No offence taken. I can imagine that being mis-quoted gets annoying after a while. If, one day, I get more time on my hands I might start to follow the WP. If so, I'll make sure to read and understand all documentation involved.

Good luck with your training as well, though in your case you don't require as much luck as I do .

[Nosmo]

I've not done 4x 2k before, that I recall, though I've done 5x 2k with 4 minutes rests a few times.

I'd consider this to be a 10k to half marathon session.

My 5k Pb is at 2k + 2.7, so it would be rather difficult to do 4x 2k at this pace.
Maybe 5k +3s is fast enough, but this really depends on what feels right and provides the most benefit.

If you increased the rest time to 6 to 8 minutes, you would find it a lot easier to go faster on the 4x 2k. I can do 4x2K at 5K pace with 6 minutes rest, but I certainly can't with 4 minutes rest.

[igoeja]

My own 2K PB is 7:12 (1:48 per), and from reading various sources and CII plan, I would guess my repeat paces as 5 seconds slower, and the interval as 1:1, so 4 X 2K @ 1:53 - 1:58 per.

I don't have a plan, and simply maintain my fitness with a mixture of 1 long, 1 interval, 2 easy, and one moderate workout per week, varying distances and intensities.

[iain]

Gerhard, as you admit in your signature, your endurance doesn't match your speed. 2 x 4k is a session to work on endurance at a challenging pace, hence it will reflect your endurance more than a stand alone 2k. Pete's comments are: http://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/the-pete-plan/
So pace for 2 x 4k r5' is 5k+0.5S 1:56.9 as an average, but this varies for different people.

Mike's comments on pace judgement on WP for 2k are:

The two best indicators for me are 4 x 1K and 4 x 2K. I won’t even list the relationships because there is a strong correlation between MY training and MY 2ks, but not necessarily between MY training and YOUR 2Ks.

So he agreed that there was no one size fits all formula. At the risk of quoting MC out of context, he also wrote the following re setting targets for a training program:

For example, if I wanted to row 2K in 6:24 by Feb. 25, 2006 [CRASH-B], 1-2 weeks prior to the race I would want to be able to do a 4 x 2K workout with an average pace of 1:40 or faster, and a 4 x 1K workout with an average pace in the low 1:35s. In August and September I didn’t sit down and try to hammer out scores as hard as I could trying to get to my targets as fast as possible. I know that I can improve my Level 2 paces over the season at a rate of about .2s/500m/week, and my 4 x 1K pace by about .1s/500m/week, so I form my seasonal strategy based on those rates of improvement (i.e., my seasonal training pace).

Now I agree that he doesn't say absolutely that the improvements are the maximum or even comparatively as difficult, but assuming this latter to be the case, this suggests that on WP, 4x2k improves approx. twice as fast as 4x1k. Hence, during training, the difference between the paces for these will reduce and therefore neither would be a reliable indicator for 2k capability during the training phase. I take this to be because the WP is better at improving endurance than all out power (the oft quoted 80% figure for aerobic component of a 2k would justify this approach).

As discussed in PMs before, you are better than most at raising your performance for TTs and therefore would not expect to have your regular training predict as fast a time as you can achieve. Conversely, the times you have achieved in TTs will suggest faster times for training than you achieve.

I used to do the PP intervals at longer rest periods than suggested. Since starting with Pete, I have discovered that there is a faster improvement from the prescribed rests. Indeed I am often set interval sessions with much shorter rest periods (at a correspondingly slower pace). It all depends what you want the session to do. No one session and approach can deal with all the requirements of a 2k. If performing at race pace or above to get comfortable with this and build lactate tolerance, longer intervals are required, but endurance will benefit from shorter rests.

Finally, Pete has advocated shorter workouts for specific 5k training, but still pronounces the 4 x 2k as a good workout. From his replies to me I believe he would also be in the "answer 3&4 camp". Especially as he believes that the "Level 2 type workouts" (Long intervals) are best started at a comfortable pace and always performed at a pace you believe you can maintain. Finishing is much more important than the pace achieved.

I hope my unworthy thoughts are useful to you and that those more knowledgable will point out my misconceptions.

Kind regards

Iain

[johnlvs2run]

I can do 4x2K at 5K pace with 6 minutes rest, but I certainly can't with 4 minutes rest.

But can you do the 5k at 2k + 2.7 seconds.

[Gerhard]

As discussed in PMs before, you are better than most at raising your performance for TTs and therefore would not expect to have your regular training predict as fast a time as you can achieve. Conversely, the times you have achieved in TTs will suggest faster times for training than you achieve.

I know you are right. My training results do not come close to my time trial results (when I'm fully charged). Maybe I should consider it a 'talent' instead of a weakness

[Nosmo]

I can do 4x2K at 5K pace with 6 minutes rest, but I certainly can't with 4 minutes rest.

But can you do the 5k at 2k + 2.7 seconds.

I can do much better then that...
I can do 2K at 5K - 5 :
It just depends on how you look at it.

When I was a cyclist who sometimes rowed, my pace slowed by just a bit under 3 seconds per doubling of distance. So I was close to what you do. Over the last year and a half I have become primarily a rower, and have worked on power more and am now about 4 seconds slower for each doubling of distance.

[johnlvs2run]

I can do 2K at 5K - 5

So you can't do it then.

Well then how about 4x 2k at 2k plus 2.7 seconds.

Can you do that, with 4 or 6 minute rests or whatever.

[Nosmo]

So you can't do it then.
Well then how about 4x 2k at 2k plus 2.7 seconds.
Can you do that, with 4 or 6 minute rests or whatever.

No I certainly can't, unless I get to define "whatever" as 10 hours or so.

I was close to being able to do it 18 months ago, but my 2k time was about 25 seconds slower back then.

I would still bet that you could do pretty close to 4x2K at 5K pace if you increased the rest to 8 minutes.

[johnlvs2run]

I would still bet that you could do pretty close to 4x2K at 5K pace if you increased the rest to 8 minutes.

If you can't do 4x 2k at 2k plus 2.7 seconds, what makes you think that I could?

Thanks for the compliment though.

[Nosmo]

If you can't do 4x 2k at 2k plus 2.7 seconds, what makes you think that I could?
Thanks for the compliment though.

I think most everyone could do 8K at close to their 5K pace, if they broke it up with 24 minutes of rest.

[johnlvs2run]

I think most everyone could do 8K at close to their 5K pace, if they broke it up with 24 minutes of rest.

No - because you can't do a 5k at 2k + 2.7 seconds.

[PaulS]

I think most everyone could do 8K at close to their 5K pace, if they broke it up with 24 minutes of rest.

No - because you can't do a 5k at 2k + 2.7 seconds.

Sure he can, he just has to do a slow 2k first.

[Nosmo]

I think most everyone could do 8K at close to their 5K pace, if they broke it up with 24 minutes of rest.

No - because you can't do a 5k at 2k + 2.7 seconds.

I can't row 4x2K at my 5K pace because you can do 5K at 2K pace + 2.7 seconds!? I just can't argue with logic like that!
You win, I'm done with this thread. I haven't added anything of import so I'll stop wasting everyone's time.