Big change at top of nonathlon

[rowmyboat]

You're being a little unfair Henry. We all know it's not perfect in it's structure but it deserves more credit than what you give it. If you are unable to see it as a good motivational tool then just ignore it and leave those who benefit from it to continue to use it without all this criticism every time it comes up in conversation.

[Cyclingman1]

I looked at the score of the 2nd placegetter recently, he had just completed the FM and I've no doubt he didn't find that 'easy'. I take it he's a cyclist so possibly hasn't got the stamina of the upper body that is needed for a top FM, something that we usually only do once a year anyway.

I am the second place person in nonathlon at this point in 2013. I really have had no interest in doing a FM, but I decided to try. I have given a fairly full account of that effort in a C2 training topic: “Marathon row ending badly.” Lack of preparation was the main problem. Also injury since Dec, 2012. Upper body strength/endurance is not really an issue.

Regarding TJ, the bottom line is that his times should be posted in nonathlon. I personally feel that he could be more forthcoming in terms of posting times when rowed and providing minimal personal information. In C2 rankings, there is no profile. One cannot even know when a time has been rowed.

Regarding the legitimacy of nonathlon. I think that it is a great system. I like it better than say the handicap system in golf, which rewards mediocrity to some degree. The nonathlon system has come up with an ideal standard based on age and performances. It seems entirely fair to me. Occasionally, someone comes along, like TJ, who is physically beyond the typical competitor for an age group. Then the system takes a hit to some extent.

Congrats on leading/winning the 2013 nonathlon.

Jim Grattan

[rowmyboat]

Jim, I've just read your account of the Marathon effort, incredible that you even finished after all you went through. I only peek at this forum a couple of times a year and wasn't aware of your post. It reminded me of my first FM about 8 years ago in which I suffered terribly and ended up with cramp over the last 10k and had many stops. Swore I'd never do it again but somehow I have managed to most years and although it's not the most comfortable of rows I manage to endure it a little better than I did my first one.

Going off too fast is not a good start as you found out but I did chuckle when I realised you had worked out what time you needed to gain top spot. Sometimes we think we can do the impossible but it doesn't usually happen. Contrary to what some folk do, I have never rowed more than around 25k in the build up to a FM. Anything over 30k is sapping too much energy and takes more time to recover.

The season hasn't finished yet, I fully expected you to end up on top in actual fact. I'm sure you will time your training to ensure an improvement in the FM next season - indeed I might have to pull my sox up, there are few very capable of leaving me in their wake.

I congratulate you on your effort in the FM and indeed on your efforts after being involved in this sport for such a short time and look forward to seeing you progress in the future.

Kind regards,
Shirley

[Cyclingman1]

Shirley, thanks for the kind words.

Taking in a variety of comments, I think I will do better in the FM next yr - I certainly hope so. I tend to agree that huge mileage, at least for me, is counterproductive. I may reach 30k maybe once before my nxt try. I like the idea of doing 20-25km a few times before my nxt try.

The best laid plans of mice and men and rowers often go awry. Back in Nov, 2012, I figured I could get to 9400 pts in nonathlon. I had been on a roll with better times every week. Alas my back and then my hip said "no way." I do have some spinal stenosis that I have to be aware of. Sports can be humbling, if one gets ahead on one's self.

Now I have to regroup after my exhausing FM try and getting over THR. That will be part of the fun, trying to get back to where I was. Hope to see you at the top of the leader board at some point in the 2014 season.

Jim

[Ralph Earle]

In C2 rankings, there is no profile. One cannot even know when a time has been rowed. Jim Grattan

Just left-click on the rank number. The window that pops up contains the date rowed; for example, your 1K:
Rower Profile
Name Jim Grattan
Current Age 67
Weight (kg) 89
Country USA
Personal Comments Essentially started rowing in Jan/12; had to cut back on cycling miles.
Date Rowed 11/10/2012 9:12:00 AM
Date Submitted 11/10/2012 8:41:05 AM
Type Indoor Rower.

[Ralph Earle]

[Cyclingman1]

Perhaps the Jaws Theme Song should be clarified as far as the relevance to C2 rowing.

[NavigationHazard]

Between roughly early 20 and late 30 we are at our best, I think everybody should be compared to the wr in their class. I think one curveline should apply for all, that would eliminate rare results.

Mostly what it would do would be to introduce a different set of biases. You'd still have an age/performance decay problem: WRs tend to be set by people just entering the age groups, and those at the back end of a category would still be disadvantaged. For the 2k, the categories are 19-29, 30-29, 40-49, and then in five-year increments. Anyone who's 49 and not named Anna Bailey or Tessa Brockwell, say, is likely to be toasted by rowers just turning 40. Anyone who's 59 is at risk of being toasted by rowers just turning 50. Etc. For all the other competition distances the classes are defined according to 10-year increments. Other things equal, this is a significant advantage vis-a-vis a world record to those just entering a new category....

IMO all this is the rowing equivalent of baseball sabermetrics: there are a million ways to try to equalize performances, some of them better than others at some things and no one of them fully descriptive of talent/results. I tip my hat to Paul H for all the hard work in the Nonathlon (which I've only dabbled in) and am happy to accept it for what it is.

[Cyclingman1]

This topic started in reference to the 2013 nonathlon season, but is now entirely relevant to the 2014 season. The same individual TJ Oesterling of Hawaii has once again posted, 8/16, at the top of the nonathlon standings by a considerable margin. The times posted are almost unbelievable, except in this case they are entirely believable. Perhaps some oldtimers can address as to whether there has ever been a better C2 rower taking into account age. In my perusal of past rankings, I don't see anyone even close in their domination of a wide range of distances.

[Ralph Earle]

Four others have ended the season ranked #1 in all ten events: Anna Bailey, F-H, 50-59, 2003; Dwayne Adams, M-H, 40-49, 2005; Robert Spenger, M-H, 80+, 2006; and, Anne Bourlioux, F-H, 50-59, 2013.

TJ Oesterling has done it four times, in 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013.

In the context of the Nonathlon, while TJ projects to about 9550 points, there have been several Nonathletes with higher season totals:
easirower [Anna Bailey] F51H 10048 in 2003
Granny [Hilary Weeks} F66H 9808 in 2003
easirower [Anna Bailey] F52H 9713 in 2004
Medusa [Mary Perrot] F45L 9710 in 2003
Ole Granny [Hilary Weeks} F65H 9728 in 2002
DEANSMITH M79L 9656 in 2006
Buffy [Christina Nugent] F35L 9598 in 2003

As I recall, however, around 2006 Paul Harris changed his scoring model from a 6-degree polynomial to a quadratic function.

I'll post this edit now and update it with recalculated scores for these seven. Obviously, it won't be fair to them, because standards have risen, but it will give a rough equivalent.

Update: I only had to recalculate Anna Bailey's 10048 in 2003. Under the current scoring scheme her total would be 9388, so all seven would be less than 9400.

[hjs]

Four others have ended the season ranked #1 in all ten events: Anna Bailey, F-H, 50-59, 2003; Dwayne Adams, M-H, 40-49, 2005; Robert Spenger, M-H, 80+, 2006; and, Anne Bourlioux, F-H, 50-59, 2013.

TJ Oesterling has done it four times, in 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013.

Adams was a fraude, he never produced any witnessed row.

[hjs]

Four others have ended the season ranked #1 in all ten events: Anna Bailey, F-H, 50-59, 2003; Dwayne Adams, M-H, 40-49, 2005; Robert Spenger, M-H, 80+, 2006; and, Anne Bourlioux, F-H, 50-59, 2013.

TJ Oesterling has done it four times, in 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013.

Adams was a fraude, he never produced any witnessed row.


Mister TJ is indeed a very fine atlete, difficult to compare with rowers in their prime, but for older ergers the best ever by a big margin.

[mikvan52]

Four others have ended the season ranked #1 in all ten events: Anna Bailey, F-H, 50-59, 2003; Dwayne Adams, M-H, 40-49, 2005; Robert Spenger, M-H, 80+, 2006; and, Anne Bourlioux, F-H, 50-59, 2013.

TJ Oesterling has done it four times, in 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013.

Adams was a fraude, he never produced any witnessed row.


Mister TJ is indeed a very fine atlete, difficult to compare with rowers in their prime, but for older ergers the best ever by a big margin.

How big a margin, Henry? How about Paul Hendershott?

as in: 2000 meters 60-64 Paul Hendershott M Hwt 60 USA 6:23.7 2004 Indoor rowing race
Last time I looked even TJ hasn't broken that one... (Sorry if someone else has pointed this out already...)

Lot's of us have met Paul and he's the real item... as is TJ.... All the best to all of you...
regards,
Mike vB

[Gettingold]

Wouldn't it make sense that every competitor posts their times with validated data....eg Rowpro or C2 log. It's not expensive and readily available. You can rely on peoples honesty in a perfect world....but this worlds not perfect. It would certainly eliminate the questions and suppositions. I feel guilty just posting my training times with out validation.
It would seem that this Nonathlon was thought up fpr a bit of fun....but not everyone appears happy.

[mikvan52]

2000 13-18 Karsten Brodowsky M Hwt 18 GER 5:47.0 2004 Indoor rowing race
2000 19-29 Rob Waddell M Hwt 24 NZL 5:38.3 1999 Indoor rowing race
2000 30-39 Rob Waddell M Hwt 32 NZL 5:36.6 2008 Indoor rowing race
2000 40-49 Nik Fleming M Hwt 40 GBR 5:57.5 2009 Indoor rowing race
2000 50-54 Andy Ripley M Hwt 50 GBR 6:07.7 1998 Indoor rowing race
2000 55-59 Dick Cashin M Hwt 55 USA 6:18.6 2009 Indoor rowing race
2000 60-64 Paul Hendershott M Hwt 60 USA 6:23.7 2004 Indoor rowing race
2000 65-69 Charles Hamlin M Hwt 65 USA 6:40.3 2013 CRASH-B 2013
2000 70-74 Bernhard Strocka M Hwt 70 GER 6:54.8 2013 Indoor rowing race
2000 75-79 Stephen Rounds M Hwt 75 USA 7:22.3 2005 Indoor rowing race
2000 80-84 Dean Smith M Hwt 81 USA 7:45.5 2008 Indoor rowing race
2000 85-89 Dean Smith M Hwt 86 USA 8:10.5 2013 Indoor rowing race
2000 90-94 Harry Dobinson M Hwt 90 GBR 9:32.5 2011 Indoor rowing race

These are the records that matter the most as so many try.... each year

Other calculations are secondary by huge margins. I'd bet though that TJ is planning to go after Hamlin's record soon... If not, he should.. Very few people will ever watch scores on our None-thingy...