Why do we fail, and what's the best way to deal with it?

[markinnb]

Buddy, if I could split it like Rodriguez does, i wouldn't worry my head over training heresies. If i had his power output and endurance I wouldn't even have to. My guess is that "ambitious" first .5, positive second, flat third, hang on and die final is very common.

he is tremendously strong in the arms/ forearms ( and everywhere obviously ) . Bent & heavy pulling with the arms- either right on time or just a split second early. he must chew his fingernails down to nothing.

I get tendinitis just watching that video. I understand that often or always, form is thrown out the window during the races. at some point or throughout. ( not suggesting that he is using horrible or even bad form - just talking about the force on the muscles of the arm on the pulls )

[Bob S.]

What is the optimal frequency of 2k comps? Once per year in a venue of celebrated reputation? Four or five times in prelims or feeder competitions? How about 2k tests? The shortest Interactive 2k prep to test is 8 weeks of training. So maybe 6 opportunities per year? The longest is 26 weeks--twice yearly.

Prelims and feeders are the US route, leading the WIRC. In the Islands, appears to me that it is more a matter of lots of regional comps along with some that are mostly a matter of tradition.

I have this Wrong-way Corrigan thing I call the "frontloader." I've done it on speed

I read it that far and thought, "Wow, that's one way to hit a PR, although maybe a last one." Then I got to the next line and found out that it wasn't really quite what it had seemed to be.

and endurance intervals and, perhaps predictably, also done it on 2k tests. Classic fly and die, fly and struggle, fly and fade. Saw another recent member here get a 2K PR with an initial 500m 11" faster than the next and 9" faster than the average of the final splits. Newby nonsense? Low probability of even finishing? Other time-tested strategies promise better results? Yes yes, YES!

Take note that an initial pace maintained is a FLAT pace. Somewhere someone will take this training path, succeed in competition, and everyone will swear it's the flattest-paced effort they've seen. Or the pace will go negative and everyone will swear it's down to good old time-honored training wisdom. [/quote]

There seems to be two major strategies. One which is strongly favored in France, a fast first split, hang in steady for 2 splits at close to goal pace, and go negative for the last one. The other one is a continuous negative splitting, which is what Mike Caviston's extensive research appears to support. Just plain physics tells us that an absolute flat pace is the most efficient. But human psychology comes into play as well. The fast first split is very much a hangover from OTW racing, in which getting out in front at the start is considered to be a psychological advantage.

I am surprised that you used the term "good old time-honored training wisdom" for negative pacing. Until Caviston's relatively recent postings about his research on it, it was pretty much ignored - and many still disagree, as in the example of the postings about the French training, which were also quite recent.

[Bob S.]

I left one thing out of my latest post - the amount of difference in splits. For flat splitting it's zero by definition. For both the all-negative and the fast start adherents, only a small difference is recommended - just a second or so.

Rodriquez's race was far off from that conventional wisdom, with drops of 1.6, 2.4, and 1.3. In terms of watts, it would be even more striking on account of the cube effect. One second at that level is like 2-4s at the level of ordinary paddlers.

[Galeere]

I left one thing out of my latest post - the amount of difference in splits. For flat splitting it's zero by definition. For both the all-negative and the fast start adherents, only a small difference is recommended - just a second or so.

Rodriquez's race was far off from that conventional wisdom, with drops of 1.6, 2.4, and 1.3. In terms of watts, it would be even more striking on account of the cube effect. One second at that level is like 2-4s at the level of ordinary paddlers.

And then there might be a difference between planned strategy and race execution. The racing ergateer might feel surprisingly strong that day (or in other cases surprisingly weak) and adjust his pace accordingly.

[markinnb]

I left one thing out of my latest post - the amount of difference in splits. For flat splitting it's zero by definition. For both the all-negative and the fast start adherents, only a small difference is recommended - just a second or so.

Rodriquez's race was far off from that conventional wisdom, with drops of 1.6, 2.4, and 1.3. In terms of watts, it would be even more striking on account of the cube effect. One second at that level is like 2-4s at the level of ordinary paddlers.

he pumped up his rating to 45 to get that too. I got the impression that his arms did a lot of the work in getting that final pace. His rating of 45 took some of the load off per stroke. I understand that cumulative effect may be cumbersome.

The 2013 WIRC results couldn't be found . I wanted to see Olena Buryak's time/performance numbers. It was a beautiful treat to watch- she barely broke a sweat ( or so it seemed ) and broke rhythm only slightly. I think she did it in 200 strokes as well. When she finished, she just stopped, waved around , got up and then ran 10 km.... just kidding on the last one but it did look like she still had lots of energy remaining. I know what is said about looks being deceiving.

for her WR 6:25 ( 1:36.2) her splits were:
1:35.8 r 32
1:36.8 r 31
1:37.2 r 30
1:35.2 r 34

t, t+1, t+1.4, t-0.6 or -.4%, +0.6%, +1.0%, -1.0% in terms of the actual average race pace.

i am not overly concerned about the errors in the math calculations. The issue is her performance and how she did it. I can't recall anyone hitting record times in the same manner . Although not a WR, Peter D made his row appear to be just another training session. Olena made her effort look like a breeze.

[jackarabit]

Meeska, mooska mouseketeer! Who're the leaders of the club? The guys with the theories and the evidential support for the normative experience. Who's the leader WITH the club? The guy with no form and golf elbow waiting in the wings. And I say to my self: ____ _ _________ _____!

[christopherregisryan]

In my experience, a loss of power at the end of a 2k will cost more than the benefit of a slightly faster split for the bulk of the race. If I run out of gas with 200m to go and the splits keep rising on the monitor, I lose a lot of time. It is not a pleasant experience especially if a lot of training has gone into the preparation for the race and my result is below target. I am sure elite rowers can hang on to an ambitious split better than recreational rowers. For recreational types like me, it is much easier to muster a sprint to make up for a slightly slower split. Empty the tanks!

[markinnb]

Meeska, mooska mouseketeer! Who're the leaders of the club? The guys with the theories and the evidential support for the normative experience. Who's the leader WITH the club? The guy with no form and golf elbow waiting in the wings. And I say to my self: ____ _ _________ _____!

I think that we are all talking about the same thing.
the athletes, male or female- do their thing in the manner that best suits them.
Graham Benton goes all out- and often falls in a heap at the end.
Olena makes it look effortless. hyperbole-- it was NOT without effort.
Angel makes it look effortless. " "" " " "

I would love to row in the manner that Olena did. It would be gravy if I ended up with good times.

Many of us can't possibly do what they do and we can't do our best in the manner that they do theirs.
Each person has to use what they have brought with them on any given day.
Angel worked hard to get those strong biceps etc, As did Samson, who appears to have lived up to his namesake.*
* EDIT: or was born with genetics favoring having strong muscles, tendons and whatever else. and/or worked hard on developing them

[markinnb]

In my experience, a loss of power at the end of a 2k will cost more than the benefit of a slightly faster split for the bulk of the race. If I run out of gas with 200m to go and the splits keep rising on the monitor, I lose a lot of time. It is not a pleasant experience especially if a lot of training has gone into the preparation for the race and my result is below target. I am sure elite rowers can hang on to an ambitious split better than recreational rowers. For recreational types like me, it is much easier to muster a sprint to make up for a slightly slower split. Empty the tanks!

Thanks. So hit target pace say by 1000 m, hold it, then give all you got at some distance from the end.

[christopherregisryan]

Thanks. So hit target pace say by 1000 m, hold it, then give all you got at some distance from the end.

I try to stay my survival zone until about 300m even if I am a bit above target. At 300m, I rate up a bit and try to bring that split down by at least 2 below target (more if I have it). I try not start my sprint too early even if I feel pretty good. I made this mistake at CRASH-B's in February and almost lost my whole piece in the last 100m. My lesson learned. 300m at target minus 3 will do more for my overall time than 400m at target minus 2 (and a lot more than 300m at target minus 2 followed by 100m at target plus 3 as my body starts to shut down).

[f2d]

How do people row their best 2K and not be dying afterwards?

After I do a 2K I have pain so bad that if I had the choice of having to endure that pain for 24 hours or put a gun to my head I'd probably choose the latter.

[G-dub]

Not to move this thread into an even more distracted direction, but I am always curious about the word "pain" associated with a 2K. I am not sure I feel pain so much as I feel like I am drowning. And maybe a little more numb (not sure that is it either but there is a shutting down kind of feeling) then in pain? I'm not saying that folks aren't feeling what they are feeling (not one little bit) I'm just not sure for me the thing actually hurts. Mostly I just want to jump out of my skin and anything I am wearing because I can't find enough oxygen! Wouldn't it be nice if I haven't gotten to the pain part because I'm not fit enough yet!

[jackarabit]

I don't feel pain after. More like panic than pain. Maybe an uncomfortable fear of asphyxiation. Each time I don't die, I find it easier to believe I won't die the next time.

[gregsmith01748]

Regarding the "fly til you die" training method. I think I remember seeing posts from Roy brook, john Doyle and maybe Casey Clark. Generally, it was in pursuit of some big, hairy objective like an age group world record. They would take off at world record pace and see how far they got. Then they would train like beasts for a few weeks and try it again.

You might find something on the ISS blog threads, but it would be like finding a needle in a molasses covered haystack.

As for race pacing, I'm all for flat pacing through 1700m and then trying to throw everything you have left at it. It has worked for me 75% of the time to set personal best times.

[lindsayh]

Regarding the "fly til you die" training method. I think I remember seeing posts from Roy brook, john Doyle and maybe Casey Clark. Generally, it was in pursuit of some big, hairy objective like an age group world record. They would take off at world record pace and see how far they got. Then they would train like beasts for a few weeks and try it again.
You might find something on the ISS blog threads, but it would be like finding a needle in a molasses covered haystack.
As for race pacing, I'm all for flat pacing through 1700m and then trying to throw everything you have left at it. It has worked for me 75% of the time to set personal best times.

Yes John Doyle did it best as well as a very interesting sessions with bumps - if you search the members of ISS blogs for "yiftertheshifter" you will see the method. He is a WIRC winner as 40+lwt and close to world record pace.

My fastest 2ks have followed the Caviston "recipe" especially in races.