Erg Vs. Strength Exercises

[old] Ikabob · Post by **[old] Ikabob** » April 6th, 2005, 8:52 pm

Generally, would you think that good ergging takes the place of a full body strength workout or are there strength exercises that would complement ergging? I'd like to think that if I erg that I can stop lifting and still stay toned. Thank you.

[old] akit110 · Post by **[old] akit110** » April 7th, 2005, 10:16 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Ikabob @ Apr 6 2005, 08:52 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Generally, would you think that good ergging takes the place of a full body strength workout or are there strength exercises that would complement ergging? I'd like to think that if I erg that I can stop lifting and still stay toned. Thank you. </td></tr></table> I personally don't believe erging is sufficient stimulus to replace full body weight-training if your goal is optimum muscle development. In a typical erging session of say 30 minutes, you are probably doing 750 'reps' (i.e. actually strokes). What type of muscular development would you expect if you went to a gym and did one set of 750 reps on the seated row or leg press machine with a weight light enough to make that many reps possible? If you just want to maintain good muscle tone then I think regular erging and a good diet should do the trick.

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » April 7th, 2005, 10:43 am

Surely the erg is for CV and lifting is for strength, and both need an object. Once you've decided what the main object is, the method will be clear. The only combo I've found is sculling, or should I say I don't want to find any worse; a 1x has high gearing. I can get my HR from 100 to 150 in less than a minute even at 20-22. To replicate this on the erg you could use a high DF and let the fan stop. Your risk.

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » April 8th, 2005, 10:02 am

You can do some things on the erg that make the workout more like weight lifting. Try giving close to maximum effort on each stroke, but only row at 15 strokes per minute. I find that a good strength workout is to row at a 1:55 pace whilst keeping the stroke rate at 15 spm. Putting the damper up to 10 and doing low spm will also be a good strength workout. As with all strength training, proper posture is important to prevent injury. Paul Flack

[old] phowd · Post by **[old] phowd** » April 8th, 2005, 11:42 am

And another thing I've been playing with (like others have mentioned) .... I hate to even bring it up .... is elevating either end of the erg 10 cm or so to increase the work that needs to be done against gravity. It does seem to make a difference (measured qualitatively by muscle groups and quantitatively by pace and heart rate monitoring.) Note I didn't use the J word. This is a training aid, not a racing technique.... Why do I feel foolish for even mentioning it? I'm probably going to h*** for this. Peter

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » April 12th, 2005, 9:37 am

Peter, I think that you are only the third person in the world to actually try such a foolish thing! A lot has been said about this topic, but few have tried it. Putting a simple 2" x 4" plank under the back legs of the erg and then trying to row a decent 5K will make you think that you have already entered the depths of the underworld. Cheers, Paul Flack

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » April 12th, 2005, 11:12 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I think that you are only the third person in the world to actually try such a foolish thing! </td></tr></table> Maybe the 4th!!! Great with strapless 500 intervals @ <20spm! GW

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » April 12th, 2005, 6:12 pm

Ran across this article for the Meatheads out there... You know who you are. <a href='http://articles.health.msn.com/id/100101230/?GT1=6327' target='_blank'>The 7 Biggest Muscle Myths</a> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We deflate the lies and inflate your biceps By: Scott Quill Photograph by: Darryl Estrine The guy lifting beside you looks like he should write the book on muscle. Talks like it, too. He's worked out since the seventh grade, he played D-1 football, and he's big. But that doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about. Starting now, ignore him. The gym is infested with bad information. Lies that start with well-intentioned gym teachers trickle down to students who become coaches, trainers, or know-it-all gym-rat preachers. Lies morph into myths that endure because we don't ask questions, for fear of looking stupid. Scientists, on the other hand, gladly look stupid—that's why they're so darn smart. Plus, they have cool human-performance laboratories where they can prove or disprove theories and myths. Here's what top exercise scientists and expert trainers have to say about the crap that's passed around in gyms. Listen up and learn. Then go ahead, question it. MYTH #1 Lifting incredibly slowly builds incredibly big muscles. Lifting super slowly produces superlong workouts—and that's it. University of Alabama researchers recently studied two groups of lifters doing a 29-minute workout. One group performed exercises using a 5-second up phase and a 10-second down phase, the other a more traditional approach of 1 second up and 1 second down. The faster group burned 71 percent more calories and lifted 250 percent more weight than the superslow lifters. The real expert says: "The best increases in strength are achieved by doing the up phase as rapidly as possible," says Gary Hunter, Ph.D., C.S.C.S., the lead study author. "Lower the weight more slowly and under control." There's greater potential for growth during the lowering phase, and when you lower with control, there's less chance of injury. MYTH #2 If you eat more protein, you'll build more muscle. To a point, sure. But put down the shake for a sec. Protein promotes the muscle-building process, called protein synthesis, "but you don't need exorbitant amounts to do this," says John Ivy, Ph.D., coauthor of Nutrient Timing. If you're working out hard, consuming more than 0.9 to 1.25 grams of protein per pound of body weight is a waste. Excess protein breaks down into amino acids and nitrogen, which are either excreted or converted into carbohydrates and stored. The real expert says: More important is when you consume protein, and that you have the right balance of carbohydrates with it. Have a postworkout shake of three parts carbohydrates and one part protein. Eat a meal several hours later, and then reverse that ratio in your snack after another few hours, says Ivy. "This will keep protein synthesis going by maintaining high amino acid concentrations in the blood." MYTH #3 Leg extensions are safer for your knees than squats. And cotton swabs are dangerous when you push them too far into your ears. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing. A recent study in Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise found that "open-chain" exercises—those in which a single joint is activated, such as the leg extension—are potentially more dangerous than closed-chain moves—those that engage multiple joints, such as the squat and the leg press. The study found that leg extensions activate your quadriceps muscles slightly independently of each other, and just a 5-millisecond difference in activation causes uneven compression between the patella (kneecap) and thighbone, says Anki Stensdotter, the lead study author. The real expert says: "The knee joint is controlled by the quadriceps and the hamstrings. Balanced muscle activity keeps the patella in place and appears to be more easily attained in closed-chain exercises," says Stensdotter. To squat safely, hold your back as upright as possible and lower your body until your thighs are parallel to the floor (or at least as far as you can go without discomfort in your knees). Try front squats if you find yourself leaning forward. Although it's a more advanced move, the weight rests on the fronts of your shoulders, helping to keep your back upright, Stensdotter says. MYTH #4 Never exercise a sore muscle. Before you skip that workout, determine how sore you really are. "If your muscle is sore to the touch or the soreness limits your range of motion, it's best that you give the muscle at least another day of rest," says Alan Mikesky, Ph.D., director of the human performance and biomechanics laboratory at Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis. In less severe instances, an "active rest" involving light aerobic activity and stretching, and even light lifting, can help alleviate some of the soreness. "Light activity stimulates bloodflow through the muscles, which removes waste products to help in the repair process," says David Docherty, Ph.D., a professor of exercise science at the University of Victoria in Canada. The real expert says: If you're not sore to the touch and you have your full range of motion, go to the gym. Start with 10 minutes of cycling, then exercise the achy muscle by performing no more than three sets of 10 to 15 repetitions using a weight that's no heavier than 30 percent of your one-rep maximum, says Docherty. MYTH #5 Stretching prevents injuries. Maybe if you're a figure skater. Researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reviewed more than 350 studies and articles examining the relationship between stretching and injuries and concluded that stretching during a warmup has little effect on injury prevention. "Stretching increases flexibility, but most injuries occur within the normal range of motion," says Julie Gilchrist, M.D., one of the study's researchers. "Stretching and warming up have just gone together for decades. It's simply what's done, and it hasn't been approached through rigorous science." The real expert says: Warming up is what prevents injury, by slowly increasing your bloodflow and giving your muscles a chance to prepare for the upcoming activity. To this end, Dr. Gilchrist suggests a thorough warmup, as well as conditioning for your particular sport. Of course, flexibility is a good thing. If you need to increase yours so it's in the normal range (touching your toes without bending your knees, for instance), do your stretching when your muscles are already warm. MYTH #6 You need a Swiss ball to build a stronger chest and shoulders. Don't abandon your trusty bench for exercises like the chest press and shoulder press if your goal is strength and size. "The reason people are using the ball and getting gains is because they're weak as kittens to begin with," says Craig Ballantyne, C.S.C.S. You have to reduce the weight in order to press on a Swiss ball, and this means you get less out of the exercise, he says. The real expert says: A Swiss ball is great for variety, but center your chest and shoulder routines on exercises that are performed on a stable surface, Ballantyne says. Then use the ball to work your abs. MYTH #7 Always work out with free weights. Sometimes machines can build muscle better—for instance, when you need to isolate specific muscles after an injury, or when you're too inexperienced to perform a free-weight exercise. If you can't complete a pullup, you won't build your back muscles. So do lat pulldowns to develop strength in this range of motion, says Greg Haff, Ph.D., director of the strength research laboratory at Midwestern State University in Wichita Falls, Texas. The real expert says: "Initially, novice athletes will see benefits with either machines or free weights, but as you become more trained, free weights should make up the major portion of your training program," says Haff. Free-weight exercises mimic athletic moves and generally activate more muscle mass. If you're a seasoned lifter, free weights are your best tools to build strength or burn fat.

[old] JaneW. · Post by **[old] JaneW.** » April 16th, 2005, 1:49 am

Dear Paul, I'm one of those who hangs out in the "What have you done for strength training today?" I agree with this article but I don't see any meatheads in this forum. Basically, the health and fitness industry uses a marketing strategy similar to fashion magazines. Many of the beautiful women in Sports Illustrated and Shape magazines are touched up and glossed over. There are also myths and pressures related how a woman ought to look. The gym culture is based on looks entirely so people who have achieved a big muscluature will draw in inexperienced, naive exercisers. According to my physics book, science can prove something false but can not prove a hypothesis to be true. Science is also inaccurate but progressive using logic, intuition, and creativity. One study is not going to justify any conclusive answer. As my great hero George Sheehan, marathon runner and cardiologist, says, "We are all an experiment of one." Each of us must find what works for us and what doesn't. If something in your article works, then who am I to say that his or her method is wrong by calling him a "meathead?" I don't disagree with your opinions. I'm just not sure if you're singling someone out in this forum. By the way, you didn't answer my follow up e-mail question on "habits die hard". I sent you two. Thanks. p.s. I hope I did not offend you.

[old] BobD · Post by **[old] BobD** » April 16th, 2005, 3:48 am

And some people will never let themselves be confused by facts...

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » April 16th, 2005, 9:59 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(JaneW. @ Apr 15 2005, 09:49 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Dear Paul, As my great hero George Sheehan, marathon runner and cardiologist, says, "We are all an experiment of one." Each of us must find what works for us and what doesn't. If something in your article works, then who am I to say that his or her method is wrong by calling him a "meathead?" I don't disagree with your opinions. I'm just not sure if you're singling someone out in this forum. By the way, you didn't answer my follow up e-mail question on "habits die hard". I sent you two. Thanks. p.s. I hope I did not offend you. </td></tr></table> No offense at all.... The term "meathead" is rather like "geek" and although both could be insulting, I do not use them that way. As a matter of fact, I'm sort of a "meathead geek" myself, opting for some of the most hi-tech ways to analyze physical performance that are available. The more data the better! I thought I had answered, but will check again, maybe the delivery system failed. (darn technology) And for BobD, Facts just make the argument less fun....