Help me go sub-7:00 for the 2k

[Sideshow Bob]

good thread, OP. many of us have the same goal. unless you're naturally gifted, breaking 7 min is not easy! you'll find that the faster you get, the more difficult it becomes to improve. and i agree with carl that the hard part isn't the 2k itself...it's maintaining the required focus and intensity in training day after day and week after week.

the good news is you seem to have all of the right ingredients: height, weight,a solid aerobic background and, most importantly, the desire to go faster. good luck!

[LarryRow]

Given your current stats, your weakpoint is pure strenght. Relative speaking for your stats an 8 min 2k is very modest. Don,t know how relative fit you now are, but you need big Improvements.
Aerobic fitness is very important, but strenght needs to be there. Your stroke needs to be strong enough. Roughly speaking you need to be able to pull 16/18 seconds below your 2k av. to have enough power in your stroke. So for 1.45/7 min. You need a stroke clearly below 1.30 at max speed. I think this is your weak link.

A big thank you to everybody who has offered advice. You have given me a lot to think about. I'm going to ask the coaches at EngineRm if they could help me achieve my goal.

I know this is difficult, I'm under no illusion that I can do it. To the person who thinks I can go 6:36, whew, I appreciate the vote of confidence.

I have also been thinking that pure strength is my weak point. I pulled 1:35 at one point, in an all out attempt to hit my lowest number, but, of course, I could not hold it for long, LOL.

Can the peak force and average force numbers in ErgData help me get to the strength level I need? What do I need to push?

Am I going to develop hamstrings and quads like Atlas? Haha!

[Sideshow Bob]

if your low pull is a 1:35, you have lots of room for improvement. what was your stroke rate? just as a point of reference, last i tried, my low pull was 1:20 at ~47 spm. do speed intervals once or twice a week and the power will come. g/l.

[jackarabit]

wassup.JPG (84.67 KiB) Viewed 6549 times

Highlighted bit of Carl's daily log above is interesting in that his workout pace on one day is slower than his cooldown pace on the previous day. Must be one of them outliers we hear so much about. Fred Dicke claimed back awhile that all his logged rows were in a narrow pace band under 2:00 because warmups and cooldowns triggered asthma so he didn't do them at all. I don't quite get that but I figure that Carl is cherrypicking by mislabeling short (2k) tempo rows as warmup and cooldown. Note there's no HR mentioned for these CDs. Note that verification supports the probability that a training or TT effort was actually done; no representation is implied concerning the veracity of training log comments. I can warm up TO projected workout pace but I swear I don't have the ability to "cool down" faster than workout pace. Clearly these CDs don't have Greg Smith's "happy ending" which implies a clear falloff of pace to produce a "100% rested" HR. It occurs that cooked books are traditionally the public version.

Jack Gilmore

[LarryRow]

if your low pull is a 1:35, you have lots of room for improvement. what was your stroke rate? just as a point of reference, last i tried, my low pull was 1:20 at ~47 spm. do speed intervals once or twice a week and the power will come. g/l.

I don't member exactly, but probably 35-40. You're right, I need to push this number a lot lower and increase the stroke rate. How long could you hold your low pull?

Yes, I will do speed intervals a couple of times a week. Those will build strength.

I had a friend who ran indoor track as a master. He joined a sprinting group and showed up for his first workout. He knew it would be repeats of 100m, but he didn't know how many. He figured 6-8, but it turned out to be 15 at 90% effort! He said he was literally shaking in the blocks at the end of the workout and he hadn't even run a mile yet.

[LarryRow]

Here is a video of Chris Ives winning the CRASH-B for 50-59 year olds in 2014 with a time of 6:17.6, if I heard correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTckTwiEQf8

Chris and Michael coach at EngineRm in NYC. Great guys. I'll talk to them about achieving sub-7 in a year. I row with them 3-4 times a week now.

I find it easier to get through 14,000 meters in a group setting than I do by myself. I'm trying to row about 40,000 meters a week now. I had some low volume weeks when trying to fix my achilles but I seem ok now, or , at least, I can get through the workouts. Should I try to increase my volume, and, if so, to what?

[mdpfirrman]

Late to the thread but I can really relate Larry. I started last year (in decent shape but not optimal) doing around a 7:50 (around December 2014 / Jan 2015). Gradually increased my rowing meters (but not too much until Fall of 2015) and ended up at an indoor rowing event setting a PB of 7:19. This was mostly achieved though quite a few rounds (probably four) of Pete's Plan. I rowed five days a week and on the steady state days did minimum recommended (8K meters). One thing I did do was stick to the plan religiously the five days a week (3 intervals and two steady state days).

After February's indoor race, I was hooked. Now I'm rowing 6 days a week and taking it a lot more serious. I would concur with others that dropping from the low 7's to under 7 is quite difficult (I'm Greg's height but weigh slightly less - 188 right now and dropping). Doing lots of meters, keeping up your lifting and also fitting in intervals is challenging but it sounds like you're up to it. You probably have a much better aerobic base than I did starting out (I tried to run but have a bad knee so never was able to train a lot of MPW running and couldn't build the cardio "engine" up enough). I would guess based on your time, my strength is a tad better than yours (but not nearly as strong as some on here).

If I had to do a test today, I think I could hit 7:15 or so, but that's still a LONG way from 6:59. What I'm starting to understand, though, is concepts like the L4 from the Wolverine plan now and be able to integrate them into my training. Low rate work is the way to go. Also, rowing strapless on low rate work.

You have two very good things going for you (your height and your aerobic base) as Greg mentioned. It will just take some hard work and time. Best of luck!

Edited to your last question - that's a tough one. Sounds like you have a pretty good aerobic base already. I'd think that 40K to 50K for this year would be good (some do as much as 100K or more - follow what Galeer / Dean does for instance).

Just as an example - here's my week:

Sunday - Lifting / Speed intervals (usually 500m X 6 for now / will increase to 8 nearing race season)
Monday - Steady State - not pushing too much (around an hour) - 2:14 / 2:15 or so (PB 2K plus around 25 secs)
Tuesday - Lifting / Intermediate Intervals (usually 2000m X 2 or 2000m X 3 for now). When you do less intervals than the Pete Plan recommends, I try to go faster than he recommends. Keeping slower work slower and fast work very fast (for me).
Wed - Steady State again (an hour)
Thursday - Lifting then a 5K timed event (or Wolverine L4 for 30 minutes). This is to build anaerobic threshold.
Friday - Steady State - was doing like Monday for 3 months. Starting to transition this to more of a Wolverine L4 pace (2:05 or so at 22 SPM). If I go slower, I will row longer. If faster, around 40 minutes.

This is a plan that would suit you well (or obviously something similar). The really bad thing I do is my rowing immediately after lifting but I don't have time to separate properly. I know my rowing is suffering but I'm not sure that won't eventually help me (see the research that was just posted on the training thread about doing a static pull before a 1000m trial by Shawn Baker - there's a similar study that is linked to that study saying that lifting in the days before rowing does not effect 2K time trials but does effect maximum power but also increases stress on your muscles - a good thing IMO). Toward my indoor season, I'll probably row first, then lift at night (and not compromise my rowing as much).

[G-dub]

If I may (and I realize I was "swipey" to one of my friends, but certainly not anonymously) I would be careful about jumping into the speed and power intervals too quickly and too many times per week. You have a whole year, at least, to get where you want to go. It would be easy, however, to try to get it all done in the next month and really hit the wall. I am sure you know this from your experience, but it is so easy to overdo it, I thought it was worth mentioning.

[hjs]

Given your current stats, your weakpoint is pure strenght. Relative speaking for your stats an 8 min 2k is very modest. Don,t know how relative fit you now are, but you need big Improvements.
Aerobic fitness is very important, but strenght needs to be there. Your stroke needs to be strong enough. Roughly speaking you need to be able to pull 16/18 seconds below your 2k av. to have enough power in your stroke. So for 1.45/7 min. You need a stroke clearly below 1.30 at max speed. I think this is your weak link.

A big thank you to everybody who has offered advice. You have given me a lot to think about. I'm going to ask the coaches at EngineRm if they could help me achieve my goal.

I know this is difficult, I'm under no illusion that I can do it. To the person who thinks I can go 6:36, whew, I appreciate the vote of confidence.

I have also been thinking that pure strength is my weak point. I pulled 1:35 at one point, in an all out attempt to hit my lowest number, but, of course, I could not hold it for long, LOL.

Can the peak force and average force numbers in ErgData help me get to the strength level I need? What do I need to push?

Am I going to develop hamstrings and quads like Atlas? Haha!

You proberly are very untrained on the strenghtfront, the plus here is that early gains are the most easy. And for rowing its so much absolute strenght, but strenght endurance thats important.
For that sessions like 10 x 1min on/off rate restricted are usefull. Short enough to train strenght, but enough volume to also train your endurance. At this point your strenght is clearly your weakest link.

[Sideshow Bob]

if your low pull is a 1:35, you have lots of room for improvement. what was your stroke rate? just as a point of reference, last i tried, my low pull was 1:20 at ~47 spm. do speed intervals once or twice a week and the power will come. g/l.

I don't member exactly, but probably 35-40. You're right, I need to push this number a lot lower and increase the stroke rate. How long could you hold your low pull?

Yes, I will do speed intervals a couple of times a week. Those will build strength.

I had a friend who ran indoor track as a master. He joined a sprinting group and showed up for his first workout. He knew it would be repeats of 100m, but he didn't know how many. He figured 6-8, but it turned out to be 15 at 90% effort! He said he was literally shaking in the blocks at the end of the workout and he hadn't even run a mile yet.

not sure...maybe 10-15 sec? ive done a 250m sprint @ 1:23. anyway, with your build, i suspect your LP will go sub-1:20 if you work on it.

[LarryRow]

If I may (and I realize I was "swipey" to one of my friends, but certainly not anonymously) I would be careful about jumping into the speed and power intervals too quickly and too many times per week. You have a whole year, at least, to get where you want to go. It would be easy, however, to try to get it all done in the next month and really hit the wall. I am sure you know this from your experience, but it is so easy to overdo it, I thought it was worth mentioning.

This is well worth mentioning! I blew myself up when running after trying to complete an aggressive marathon training program. I ran 600 miles in 15 weeks with too many hard, fast, sessions, and broke down with a stress fracture. I was in hypothetical 3:25 marathon shape but never made it to the start line. It's all good, though, I came to the conclusion that I am too heavy for marathons. I was 155 pounds at the end of that training! I would call my body weak and fragile in many areas, looking back on it.

I'm not exactly sure how one breaks down from over training on the erg. Can someone enlighten me? Would it be back problems? Knee problems? What happens when you train too hard?

[hjs]

If I may (and I realize I was "swipey" to one of my friends, but certainly not anonymously) I would be careful about jumping into the speed and power intervals too quickly and too many times per week. You have a whole year, at least, to get where you want to go. It would be easy, however, to try to get it all done in the next month and really hit the wall. I am sure you know this from your experience, but it is so easy to overdo it, I thought it was worth mentioning.

This is well worth mentioning! I blew myself up when running after trying to complete an aggressive marathon training program. I ran 600 miles in 15 weeks with too many hard, fast, sessions, and broke down with a stress fracture. I was in hypothetical 3:25 marathon shape but never made it to the start line. It's all good, though, I came to the conclusion that I am too heavy for marathons. I was 155 pounds at the end of that training! I would call my body weak and fragile in many areas, looking back on it.

I'm not exactly sure how one breaks down from over training on the erg. Can someone enlighten me? Would it be back problems? Knee problems? What happens when you train too hard?

Back most likely, but also general fatique.

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

I'm not exactly sure how one breaks down from over training on the erg. Can someone enlighten me? Would it be back problems? Knee problems? What happens when you train too hard?

You can over-train in any and all sports. Your times stop improving and eventually get worse, even for low-intensity practice sessions, your HR is elevated, you don't recover between workouts, your body aches, you get irritable, you get insomnia, etc. Over-training is not a running-only phenomenon.

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

Re: all the talk about peak power. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just log a ton of meters on the erg and going sub 7:00 shouldn't be out of reach given your stats.

Guys like Eric Murray have (relatively) "weak" low pulls, but can easily beat almost anyone on a 2k, and on longer distances I think is unsurpassed (on the erg). People focus way too much on peak power when in reality the bulk of your speed comes from your aerobic system. Worry about peak power if you're trying to set a 500m world record, not if you're trying to go fast over 2k.

[G-dub]

For me:
1. low back gets tight and has started to hurt - probably because hip flexors are tight too
2. shoulder
3. left elbow pain
4. sometimes the left ankle and foot
5. IT band on really long ones
6. sometimes the hip
7. it can get very tiring. for me it gets tough to sleep after a really tough interval session. and when you do something like the gauntlet that is the Pete Plan it compounds day after day.