Distance training to Speed Training

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Rubicon
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Distance training to Speed Training

Post by Rubicon » February 13th, 2018, 8:36 am

This year i set myself a goal of rowing 1 Million Metres between 1st Jan and 31st March.
Things are well on track, I'm currently 520,000m in.
Once this is complete, I intend to try and up my speed training in order to get a good 2K time (sub 7 hopefully)
How should I go about changing my training to make this happen?
I currently row 17.1 km pieces daily at a stroke rate of 25/26 average pace approx 2.15. but this is purely my distance pace, no rush, just got to complete the distance.
How do I transition to speed over distance once I have completed my challenge?

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hjs
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by hjs » February 13th, 2018, 8:48 am

To begin with, do Some training af loper ratjes. You now row slow and build à week stroke. That Will be tough going once You speed up. If You build à stronger stroke going up to 2K Pacers Will be easier.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by Rubicon » February 13th, 2018, 9:58 am

So are you saying my stroke will be weak currently, and I need to produce more Power to achieve a faster 2 K time?
How should I go about this? would a Higher drag factor help at all? what sort of power should I look at producing?

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by JerekKruger » February 13th, 2018, 10:50 am

A concept that can be useful is stroke power index (SPI). This is a fancy name for the number you get when you divide your average power (use this calculator to convert your split into power) by your average stroke rate. This gives you an indicator of how powerful* your strokes are.

At the moment your long rows have an average power of about 140, so at rate 25 that gives an SPI of 5.6. Most people will row a 2k at lower than 36 strokes per minute, so to achieve a sub-7 2k at rate 36 you'd need an SPI of 302/36 ~ 8.4. If you use a lower stroke rate your SPI will have to be higher to achieve the same time e.g. at rate 30 you'd need an SPI of 302/30 ~ 10. At your current SPI you'd need to row at over 50 strokes per minute in order to go sub-7 on a 2k, something which isn't feasible. So you're going to have to increase your SPI if you're going to go fast.

Henry's suggestion, and one I agree with, is that the first step should be do some low rate rowing. It'll feel uncomfortable to drop all the way down to 18 strokes per minute in one go, so instead try to reduce it a little at a time. The important thing however is to not let your split get slower as you decrease your rate: ideally you want to reduce the rate and keep your split the same (or even have it get faster). This will make your workouts a lot harder, and you'll probably have to reduce the distance to compensate.

Once you've built a more powerful stroke at low rates you'll have to train yourself to use it at higher rates by doing various interval sessions, but that's something for the future.

As a side note: SPI isn't perfect so don't get hung up on it. Mine goes up as I increase my rate: at rate 18 it's fairly difficult to hit 10 but by rate 30 I can go above 12. It's best used comparing like with like i.e. comparing two different 10ks and seeing an increase shows progress.

*Powerful is, technically, the wrong word here. It's actually a measure of the amount of energy each stroke puts into the machine.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by Dangerscouse » February 13th, 2018, 11:56 am

Tom & Henry cover it all, but I think you will benefit from doing faster splits at the same stroke rate.

Try to get it gradually down to 2:00 splits as this will increase your fitness and start to get you more used to some tougher sessions with lactic acid build up.

Be prepared for quite a lot of uncomfortable sessions as there's a world of difference for a sub 7 2k and a 2:15 steady state row.
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,242m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by hjs » February 13th, 2018, 12:36 pm

Rubicon wrote:So are you saying my stroke will be weak currently, and I need to produce more Power to achieve a faster 2 K time?
How should I go about this? would a Higher drag factor help at all? what sort of power should I look at producing?
Yes and no, drag has nothing to do with your power per stroke.
For 7 min, thats 300 watt roughly, say you rate 30, thats 10 watt per stroke. You should do some of your meters at that strenght. Atm you are very far away from that.

You can combine doing the meters you do now, with a few sessions a week with focus on your stroke. Later on you can build 2k speed work in.

Ps there is no single best way. Find something that works for you. But in general for rowing you a strong enough stroke and good fitness. So you need to train those 2.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by Rubicon » February 13th, 2018, 12:53 pm

Thanks Guys.
and I thought i wa doing well :P :P
Looks like I had better make a better plan then.
:oops: :oops: :oops:

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by Dangerscouse » February 13th, 2018, 5:05 pm

Rubicon wrote:Thanks Guys.
and I thought i wa doing well :P :P
Looks like I had better make a better plan then.
:oops: :oops: :oops:
Hahaha, you are doing well but long steady state and fast intense sprints are very very different, and it will take time to readjust your body and mind to the expectations.

30r20 is a great intro to producing more power if you keep a decent pace but get used to lower strokes over a few months before you try an r20 session. It will feel very strange going from r26 to r20 too quickly.

Personally I can't row at r18 as it's too slow for me, I have done a 30r19 by mistake as I was too concerned in exceeding r20, so don't worry if r20 is as low as you can go.
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,242m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by jamesg » February 14th, 2018, 5:13 am

How do I transition to speed over distance once I have completed my challenge?
You'd probably be wasting your time, since the object of rowing is to get from one point to another with least effort, not to get there fast, since we usually have to come back too. Getting there and back is what you are doing already.

However, there are three steps, if you think you need to do it more like an oarsman:

Develop a good stroke by learning to row
Use that stroke at low rating
Use that stroke at high rating.

"Good" means plenty of work (which is Watts/Rating); exactly how much work depends on age, sex and size.

As a very rough guide, and since Work = average handle Force x net stroke Length, we can relate stroke work to size directly. Guessing that handle force = 60% weight and net length = 60% height, and using BMI = 25, we find:

Stroke Work = L x F = (H x 0.6) x (25 H² x 0.6) x g / 60 = 1.5 H³

So if you are height 1.9m, your stroke will be worth 10 Watt minutes (W'), and so on:
1.8 - 9 W'
1.7 - 7 W'
1.6 - 6 W'.

You get a discount for age and sex, maybe. My current discount (77y, 1,88, M) is about 40%. Youngsters of 60 get none.
77y, 188cm, 85kg, MHR 160. Last 2k (May 1018) 8.37@23

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by Rubicon » February 14th, 2018, 7:17 am

Thanks for all the advice people. (Jamesg, I will re read yours a few times before i get my head around that,but I'm impressed,i think) :P

So today I done 12Km at 2.09.4 @ 19 SPM which (using my new found knowledge) equates to 8.5. This is a little more respectable I think for a heavyweight (105kg) 50 year old.
The reason for the 12KMis I need to average that distance to complete my 1Million in time.

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by JerekKruger » February 14th, 2018, 7:25 am

Very big improvement with regard to stroke power. How did it feel compared to your usual rows? How did you like/dislike rowing at such a low rate. I'd expect some fairly quick improvement (due to getting used to rowing at a lower rate) followed by a plateau (this sort of rowing improves slowly) so don't get demoralised if that happens.

Also don't jeopardise your one million metres goal: you can always work on speed after that's done. This sort of rowing is likely to be more fatiguing (you're going faster, which is harder, and you're you're rowing at a lower rate which means each stroke is harder as well) so if you find it hard to maintain the required distance to hit your goal don't feel bad if you need to rate up or back off the pace.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by Rubicon » February 14th, 2018, 8:19 am

Felt a lot different to my normal row, normal row is, sit down and tug way till distance complete, no major fatigue just boredom and sore arse.
This was a lot harder by comparison, had to concentrate to keep rate that slow, kept creeping up to 21-22 spm.

Not going to lose focus on my goal, will bash that out, just going to add a few sessions of slow rate training to see where we go.

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by mitchel674 » February 14th, 2018, 10:33 am

Rubicon wrote:Thanks for all the advice people. (Jamesg, I will re read yours a few times before i get my head around that,but I'm impressed,i think) :P

So today I done 12Km at 2.09.4 @ 19 SPM which (using my new found knowledge) equates to 8.5. This is a little more respectable I think for a heavyweight (105kg) 50 year old.
The reason for the 12KMis I need to average that distance to complete my 1Million in time.
That's a really dramatic improvement for your first effort at slowing your stroke rate. Nicely done!

I struggle to slow down as my natural cadence puts me at 25spm. I really like to focus on my form and technique when I force myself down to 20spm. It helps with my boredom!
53yo male, 6ft, 162lbs

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by David Pomerantz » February 14th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Boy, I’m going the opposite direction of this thread. I’m 55 and over last couple of years have gotten to the point where 18spm was standard. I decided to try RowPro, and took on a plan designed for 5K competition. The plan focuses entirely on heart rate and stroke rate. Initially I found keeping my heart rate down within targets impossible as I went up to 23-25spm. Now after some self training I’m able to stay within the HR and SPM targets for the easy rows by pulling easy. I look forward to the slow pressure intervals where I go at 18-20spm. Those are what come naturally to me. Am I making a mistake letting the Row Pro tune me to higher SPM? Perhaps I should focus more on HR and not worry so much about SPM?

Dave

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Post by jackarabit » February 14th, 2018, 5:26 pm

David, the grass is not always greener one side of the fence or the other but may provide a balanced nutrition.
Training power per stroke @ low rate and then working to carry up (maintain) that power at a higher rate (increased work per stroke X increased strokes per minute) are complementary elements of a training progression so natural as to be seen every day in babies, to wit, learn to walk then learn to run.
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

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