Can you make gains on the erg and with weights?

[blues_]

Have you found this article on strength goals for rowers?

https://peakcentre.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... or-rowers/

Gammmmo I think you mentioned doing 1 X 6 reps at 240 pounds for a deadlift set recently. By this reckoning that puts you into the range of National level for strength in that lift.

I'd take those numbers with a very large grain of salt.

I'm 66 and can meet the deadlift standard for the olympic category which is laughable to my mind. I don't mean to denigrate the numbers for general strength and fitness, but for elite athletes? I'm very skeptical.

[G-dub]

I guess it means that you don’t have to be very strong to be an Olympic rower, but the parts you do need are pretty tough to attain!

[gregsmith01748]

I'm certainly in no position to judge the strength of elite rowers. When I read the McNeely article, I interpreted it as essentially minimums. McNeely contributed the strength training chapter in the book Rowing Faster and he wraps it up with this sentence.

If you currently are able to meet these goals, you can focus your training on other areas. If you can't meet these goals, strength may be holding back your rowing performance.

. Rowing Faster - 2nd Edition (Kindle Location 2400). Kindle Edition.

I bet most elites exceed these minimums by a fair amount. I think that the key factor in setting training programs is how to optimize the results (rowing faster over a certain distance) given the constraints of limited training time, and the interference of different types of training with each other.

Doing weights may bring certain benefits, but it takes time away from time that could be used for aerobic base training and the recovery from weight training may impact the ability to schedule high intensity rowing sessions that are needed to provide training stimulus at race intensity.

So, it's a subtle point, but I think what he is saying is that if you meet these minimums, then you will get the best results by investing more training time spent rowing than lifting.

Of course, I've come to the conclusion that I *need* to include strength training in my program for body balance and injury protection, but I don't think it's gonna make me faster. I think it's more a matter of limiting how much slower it might make me.

[gregsmith01748]

A couple more views on this from coaches that put more emphasis on weight training at an elite level.

The first is chapter ten from Advanced Rowing.

The ambiguity of weight training When it comes to the rationale for weight training, most arguments seemed to draw on testimonial experience. Often the advocates’ propositions don’t resonate with your own mentor’s advice. You may then choose to align your views with schools of common thought. Even the results of research studies on weight training for rowing seem unclear, and rarely do those projects examine the importance of weight training for high-performance rowers. Possibly the most common challenge to the use of weight training in a rowing training programme is in the knowledge that 80 per cent of the energy needed for a 2000m race is delivered by the aerobic system, so why invest in the 20 per cent that is delivered anaerobically using weight training? As you might guess, the available scientific evidence supporting the appointment of a strength and conditioning coach would appear dubious. Nonetheless, practical experience from around the globe indicates there may be good reason to incorporate strength training and testing in rowing. All I will say is that my somewhat tenuous appointment in 2009 to New Zealand rowing provided great incentive for me to ensure any weight training I did assign helped rowers and coaches to make the boats go faster.

Charles Simpson and Jim Flood. Advanced Rowing: International perspectives on high performance rowing (Kindle Locations 3369-3379). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle Edition.

The other is from Will Ruth, a book called Rowing Stronger.

The single most important reason to weight train is prevention of injury. Immediate performance improvement is a distant second. This is contrary to the beliefs of most, but does it matter how strong or how fast you are, or how great your endurance is, if you hurt too much to display it? What if you can out-run everyone on your team, but due to a shoulder injury, can’t row in the big race? What if you have the best technique in the boat, but can’t race or go 100% because of a hip injury? Weight-training can prevent muscular imbalances that lead to injury, which keeps athletes in the boat longer, providing more time to practice form and gain opportunities to improve in the sport, which can earn a longer, healthier, and more successful career.

Ruth, Will. Rowing Stronger: Strength Training to Maximize Rowing Performance (Kindle Locations 122-127). Rowperfect UK. Kindle Edition.

[Mark E]

Thanks for the quoted material gregsmith01748 -- I guess I'm predisposed to agree with the estimable coaches that see weight training as a relatively minor component of contributing to on-water rowing results. But as a lanky, skinny guy who likes to run a lot ... why wouldn't I see things that way? I know that strength-oriented athletes have posted some excellent erg scores, and I also know that many aerobic monsters who don't seem especially powerful also post amazing erg scores. Different ways to skin a cat I suppose. For me, I'll do as much strength work as I think is needed to be effective but not a whole lot more.

[jackarabit]

If you do something right for the wrong reason, will you be aware of accruing the benefits you didn’t desire?

[Mark E]

If you do something wrong for the right reason, will you be aware of accruing the desires from which you didn’t benefit?

[jackarabit]

Charlie Chan say simple transposition make tripping up steps appear same as falling down.

[Gammmmo]

Have you found this article on strength goals for rowers?

https://peakcentre.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... or-rowers/

Gammmmo I think you mentioned doing 1 X 6 reps at 240 pounds for a deadlift set recently. By this reckoning that puts you into the range of National level for strength in that lift.

I'd take those numbers with a very large grain of salt.

I'm 66 and can meet the deadlift standard for the olympic category which is laughable to my mind. I don't mean to denigrate the numbers for general strength and fitness, but for elite athletes? I'm very skeptical.

Haven't read any of the subsequent replies but I'm pretty sure 240lbs in the deadlift isn't much (Henry will definitely think it's rubbish ) and TBF I am nowhere near my 1RM I suspect - have never tried. Safety issue. I am making steady and controlled progress though. Are you sure you don't me "kgs" instead of "lbs"!!?? Over at Mindpump (podcast I really like) there is a guy there who is about my size who can do north of 400lbs. I don't think that's exceptional either. A nice milestone will be 300lbs.

Thanks for the quoted material gregsmith01748 -- I guess I'm predisposed to agree with the estimable coaches that see weight training as a relatively minor component of contributing to on-water rowing results. But as a lanky, skinny guy who likes to run a lot ... why wouldn't I see things that way? I know that strength-oriented athletes have posted some excellent erg scores, and I also know that many aerobic monsters who don't seem especially powerful also post amazing erg scores. Different ways to skin a cat I suppose. For me, I'll do as much strength work as I think is needed to be effective but not a whole lot more.

Your goals are different Mark. I'm not 100% about the erg atm.

[hjs]

Have you found this article on strength goals for rowers?

https://peakcentre.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... or-rowers/

Gammmmo I think you mentioned doing 1 X 6 reps at 240 pounds for a deadlift set recently. By this reckoning that puts you into the range of National level for strength in that lift.

I'd take those numbers with a very large grain of salt.

I'm 66 and can meet the deadlift standard for the olympic category which is laughable to my mind. I don't mean to denigrate the numbers for general strength and fitness, but for elite athletes? I'm very skeptical.

Haven't read any of the subsequent replies but I'm pretty sure 240lbs in the deadlift isn't much (Henry will definitely think it's rubbish ) and TBF I am nowhere near my 1RM I suspect - have never tried. Safety issue. I am making steady and controlled progress though. Are you sure you don't me "kgs" instead of "lbs"!!?? Over at Mindpump (podcast I really like) there is a guy there who is about my size who can do north of 400lbs. I don't think that's exceptional either. A nice milestone will be 300lbs.

Those numbers say very little, rowing is much more about aerobic fitness, top rowers are simply not that strong, some crossfit like guys pull 6 min orso, but could be a good bit faster if they got there fitness up.
Training strenght and training aerobe hinder each other. You can,t have it both ways.
For short work its a different matter, the scale much more tilts to raw power and anaerobic fitness. On the erg, weight also does not matter, otw thats different ofcourse.

[GJS]

Mark's calculations are spot on.
Plug 240 x 6 into a 1rm calculator and you get a likely max lift of c. 280 lbs.
BW (163) x 1.7 (McNeely's proposed national standard) is 277lbs.

Sam Loch's response to McNeely and further thoughts:

I've created my own table below that lowers the bench pull standard to something more realistic, as
well as recognises that the vast majority of people should and do deadlift more than they squat.

The Olympic standards below indicate strength sufficiency for the 2km distance, or
thereabouts. If you attain these numbers it's unlikely strength is the limiting factor. Do the
numbers differ between indoor rowing and OTW rowing? It's my opinion that the below standards
would also be "sufficient" for the erg, but that strength is a more important element on the machine
as compared to the boat when producing a comparable performance. This is due to the innate
nature of the apparatus which is more of a test of physicality than rowing a boat.

Men Club National Olympic
Squat 1.4 ---1.7---1.8
Deadlift 1.6---1.9---2.0
Bench Pull 1.0---1.1---1.2

One further reminder here - if your target is shorter than 2km, the numbers in the tables
would start to shift heavier. My estimation is that the hypothetical "Olympic" standard for the
deadlift, for 500m, is 2.5-3x BW. The flip side of this is that if the target distance is longer than 2k
then these numbers start to go down. That's not to say that it's a bad thing if you meet the
somewhat arbitrary 2km targets, but that if you don't, that strength still might not be the limiting
factor. I've known a few guys that can squat only 1.2-1.4x BW and yet go sub 15:30 for 5km
(1:33/500m).

- Lots of Watts, Sam Loch.

[Mark E]

Gammmmo wrote: "Your goals are different Mark. I'm not 100% about the erg atm."

Me neither. I see both erging and lifting as methods for producing better on-water race results.

The erg competition stuff is fun and I've definitely learned some good things from the posters here, but if I had to choose between being fast on an erg and fast on the water it would't be a difficult decision. I'm already a little skeptical about the super-high stroke rates I see people using for shorter test pieces -- not sure that rating 40+ for 2K is going to be applicable to my racing, but that's just me.

Same with lifting -- it's satisfying to see the lift amounts go up (until they don't) but if I was the type of athlete that puts on muscle easily I'd do as little of it as possible. Would rather go for a run (except I can't because of the arthritic hip condition that pushed me out of running and back toward rowing a few months ago).

[blues_]

Of course, I've come to the conclusion that I *need* to include strength training in my program for body balance and injury protection, but I don't think it's gonna make me faster. I think it's more a matter of limiting how much slower it might make me.

I agree with you that it's important. Each of us have different goals.

Rowing on the C2 is not a hobby for me. (In fact I generally view it as a necessary evil. )

I row to enhance my cardio. I lift to keep my strength for as long as possible. I do not intend to go gentle into that good night.

I do try to best my personal times on various interval or distance workouts, but that is secondary to the goal of enhancing and maintaining overall cardio health.

A great book on weight training, cardio and staying strong, healthy and viable for athletes over 50 is "The Barbell Prescription" by Dr. Jonathon Sullivan and Andy Baker. I highly recommend it. It goes into great detail on how to avoid succumbing to the common "aging phenotype".

[jamesg]

If my aim of getting stronger is to go (erg) faster, why can't I do it on the erg itself?

I can just pull harder, say a minute every five. I can see from Watts what I'm doing and even estimate the real force change. All at the same time I'll get stronger, learn how to apply the extra force to the handle, get a little more endurance and also see what actually happens.

If I first get stronger, then learn to apply it and then gain the necessary endurance, it will take three times as long, by when I'll be too old to bother.