Question on warm up.

[max_ratcliffe]

I'm the odd one out here as I never warm up. I have tried them and left lots of time to recover and I always seem to struggle more. Admittedly what I don't know is what I would have done if I hadn't warmed up ie would I have struggled anyway?

As I'm getting older I'm wondering if I'm starting to need a warm up. My 3 x 3k intervals yesterday, possibly felt easier in the second 3k, so I'm wondering if my first 3k was a sort of warm up.

As max said, its a very interesting subject. Perhaps in part its mental/habit/preference. A bit like stretching, i swear by it but its not often i see many others stretch pre/post workout at my gym and they dont seem worse for it.

My last rep is ALWAYS the fastest...definately the mental aspect of knowing its over once ive done it and wanting to end the workout on a high.

It's 9.15pm and I need to get some work done. However, procrastinating on here is much more entertaining.

The 500m sprint battles going on between Andrew, Keith and Martin at the moment presumably must require quite extensive warm ups. Going full bore at a 500m without a warm up sounds like a disaster. Care to share what you do, gents?

As I alluded to before, it's seriously difficult to come up with rigorous research findings, as everything takes so long to have an effect. There's also the funding side of things as well, so that a lot of research seems to be hamstrung by small sample size... "studies conducted on 8 male Finnish army recruits aged 21-23..." and so on. Interestingly, stretching pre-workout is - I think - now generally regarded as reducing strength, but until relatively recently was regarded as a no-brainer.

[lindsayh]

Thanks martin and max...sounds like it wouldnt hurt to drop it, i'll have a look through some old posts on the subject. Another thing i should mention is that i walk to the gym which takes me 30min brisk walk...so im already feeling pretty warmed up when i get there. I just assumed it was wise to do a rowing specific warmup. Id gladly drop it for my longer sessions if people think its pointless...maybe i could bring a little bit extra intensity without a WU. I guess atleast im getting some extra volume in by doing a rowing warmup.

Tim I wouldn't stop a warm up at all but it is not compulsory of course. I think the difference is around the intensity of the piece - if we are doing LSS pieces then there is nothing wrong with using the first say ten minutes of that piece to warm up and just ease into it. For me I will always do a warm up if the session is of a significant intensity. IMO it is really important to reduce the risk of injury and to maximise the performance. The alternative is that we are going to be warming up during the TT/race or hard piece. Why do all serious athletes warm up before a race/match? Because it is clear that they will probably perform better and have less risk of an injury (although I guess the science isn't completely settled but pretty strong). the coaches we most respect in rowing are pretty adamant about it..
If not racing but doing a hard session I will normally do a slower 2k at both ends - like you I like the extra meters it adds as well as a feeling of well being and looking after the body.

[Tim huges]

Max, slightly off topic but there was a post on here about stretching not too long ago. I was fairly sure my way was the proper way. Static stretching every muscle before and after, i was convinced i was preventing injury and adding flexibilty. A guy posted saying it was a load of rubbish and dynamic stretching was the way forward...i didnt reply but i looked it up and turns out he was spot on, as you say it reduces strength and there is no link to injury prevention. Ever since ive spent 5min dynamic stretching pre workout and only static stretch post workout...the difference is noticeable in my opinion. A general sense of feeling more ready to go, could be placebo? The static stretching post workout i feel still helps to keep tension at bay.

Lindsay, thanks for the advice. Im maybe thinking about it wrongly...like a seperate piece, including the WU within the piece and easing into it sounds a great idea and i hadnt thought about it that way. Typically ill warmup row 2k and stop for a few minutes to wipe/drink/change song etc. Normally i think of myself rowing 15k most sessions...but with warmups its more like 19k.

[MartinSH4321]

It's 9.15pm and I need to get some work done. However, procrastinating on here is much more entertaining.

The 500m sprint battles going on between Andrew, Keith and Martin at the moment presumably must require quite extensive warm ups. Going full bore at a 500m without a warm up sounds like a disaster. Care to share what you do, gents?
...

Of course, always a pleasure
A rule of thumb for me is: the shorter the race, the longer I warm up!
For 1min and 500m I like to do at least 2k with some bursts every 50 strokes or so, about race pace for the last one. Sometime I do a short second one if I have the feeling I need it. A little stretching is also good, but as Tim mentioned, not too static and not too long, or performance goes down.
For 100m the WU is a bit longer and I prefer to do a slower first one (but still fast).

[KeithT]

It's 9.15pm and I need to get some work done. However, procrastinating on here is much more entertaining.

The 500m sprint battles going on between Andrew, Keith and Martin at the moment presumably must require quite extensive warm ups. Going full bore at a 500m without a warm up sounds like a disaster. Care to share what you do, gents?
...

Of course, always a pleasure
A rule of thumb for me is: the shorter the race, the longer I warm up!
For 1min and 500m I like to do at least 2k with some bursts every 50 strokes or so, about race pace for the last one. Sometime I do a short second one if I have the feeling I need it. A little stretching is also good, but as Tim mentioned, not too static and not too long, or performance goes down.
For 100m the WU is a bit longer and I prefer to do a slower first one (but still fast).

I am similar to Martin, the shorter the piece the more I warm-up but in general I don't do that much. Typically a 2K with 10 strokes at race pace at the 500, 1k and 1,500 mark with some light stretching. For longer pieces I really don't row at all before other than to test drag factor and such. For really short tests I have done PBs after a workout. I often think I don't warm-up enough as when I do intervals I always feel better on the second or third one and as I said I have done some PBs after easier workouts - however, I always have a fear that I will tire myself out if I warm-up a lot.

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks martin and max...sounds like it wouldnt hurt to drop it, i'll have a look through some old posts on the subject. Another thing i should mention is that i walk to the gym which takes me 30min brisk walk...so im already feeling pretty warmed up when i get there. I just assumed it was wise to do a rowing specific warmup. Id gladly drop it for my longer sessions if people think its pointless...maybe i could bring a little bit extra intensity without a WU.

I guess atleast im getting some extra volume in by doing a rowing warmup.

I would defo say it's not needed for a long distance. All I would suggest is to grow in to the session ie don't go too fast too early and after a couple of mins ramp up to where you want to be.

That brisk walk will be doing you quite a lot of good to prepare you for the session

[Allan Olesen]

That brisk walk will be doing you quite a lot of good to prepare you for the session

Actually, Mike Caviston has a story about that too. I don't remember all the details, but I think it goes like this:
When he trained his girl team, sometimes some of them hadn't done their homework, and as punishment they had to start their training session by walking up and down a stair tower. He discovered that PBs were quite often set in these training sessions, so he actually started including stairs in the warmup for PB attempts.

[Allan Olesen]

There are lots of effects of warm up on the body, including temperature increases (which improve collagen elasticity), and more vasodilation to allow better oxygen to muscles. I will have to google to get a better explanation (not being qualified doesn't usually stop me venturing an opinion).

Some of the explanation is probably as simple as getting all your energy systems online before you start. This is how I understand it, but I am not an expert - I am just a mediocre rower and runner who happens to have read a few books:

The slow twitch muscle fibres are rather slow starters and need several minutes to reach their full capacity. One may think that those fibres don't play any important part in a 2k attempt, but they are actually quite important.

The slow twitch fibres can use pyruvate as a fuel. Pyruvate is the leftover from the anaerobic work done by the fast twitch muscle fibers, and if it isn't cleared away, it will be converted to lactic acid. Accumulation of lactid acid is often what limits us in a 2k attempt, so the more pyruvate we can clear away before it turns into lactic acid, the more work the fast twitch fibres can do before we have to stop. Consequently, we need to have the pyruvate combustion system fully online right from the start.

So in short:
If we start a record attempt while the slow twitch fibres aren't ready to run at max. capacity, the drains from the fast twitch fibres will be plugged.

[Dangerscouse]

That brisk walk will be doing you quite a lot of good to prepare you for the session

Actually, Mike Caviston has a story about that too. I don't remember all the details, but I think it goes like this:
When he trained his girl team, sometimes some of them hadn't done their homework, and as punishment they had to start their training session by walking up and down a stair tower. He discovered that PBs were quite often set in these training sessions, so he actually started including stairs in the warmup for PB attempts.

That sounds like a warm up I could do! My erg is on the the second floor so a few ups and downs might be ideal

[Mike Caviston]

Actually, Mike Caviston has a story about that too. I don't remember all the details, but I think it goes like this: When he trained his girl team, sometimes some of them hadn't done their homework, and as punishment they had to start their training session by walking up and down a stair tower. He discovered that PBs were quite often set in these training sessions, so he actually started including stairs in the warmup for PB attempts.

If you don't remember the details, you might as well just make them up? I appreciate being thought of as someone who might be worth quoting, but literally every statement here is incorrect and it reads like a silly parody of my original anecdote. Can't you just dig up the original? I do agree that warming up properly is a key to success in training and racing.

[max_ratcliffe]

Actually, Mike Caviston has a story about that too. I don't remember all the details, but I think it goes like this: When he trained his girl team, sometimes some of them hadn't done their homework, and as punishment they had to start their training session by walking up and down a stair tower. He discovered that PBs were quite often set in these training sessions, so he actually started including stairs in the warmup for PB attempts.

If you don't remember the details, you might as well just make them up? I appreciate being thought of as someone who might be worth quoting, but literally every statement here is incorrect and it reads like a silly parody of my original anecdote. Can't you just dig up the original? I do agree that warming up properly is a key to success in training and racing.

Here is what I believe to be the original story, from viewtopic.php?t=5373 (which was itself a repost):

An anecdote I have related before illustrates the point. Several years ago while coaching at Michigan in the pre-erg era, a staple workout was to have the team run a dozen times up (and down) a dozen flights of stairs in the tallest building on campus. Cumulative time for all 12 trips up & down would typically be in the 30-35’ range. The standard warm-up I required was to jog to the top & back at least twice before beginning the actual workout on the clock. Some athletes, as a penalty for various infractions during the previous week (late to practice, etc.) would also have to do two fast “penalty flights” within a specific time limit (or do more penalties), and within a couple minutes start the actual workout. So that meant 2 jog + 2 penalty + 12 workout flights. It quickly became apparent that not only were the athletes given the penalty flights NOT too tired to perform well – they took huge chunks off their best overall times; they performed MUCH better relative to past performances than their non-penalized teammates.

30-35' of stair running sounds brutal.

[max_ratcliffe]

Evidently I'm of the "do as I say, not as I do" variety.

Here's an example of how not to warm up, which I perpetrated today, resulting in my worst workout in weeks and weeks.

First, I couldn't find my head band. "Ah, it'll be okay - it's not that hot". All the rowers were being used when I got to the gym, but the SkiErg wasn't. "Ooh, I was going to have a play with that after my workout. I'll warm up on it instead".

It seemed pretty easy, so with about 500m to go, my ego (or perhaps, my id) decided to put the hammer down. "'I've never done a SkiErg 2k TT. Wonder what time I can get." Not a good one, it turned out.

I then began workout proper, an L4-style 40' session, without paying any attention to how long I rested after the warm up, and nor did I focus on what I was going to do.

I soon found out that I was tired from the skiing, but about all that was warmed up were my lats. Legs felt like leaden jelly and I already had sweat in my eyes.

All over the shop, and stopped after 20' in a state of angry befuddlement. The saving grace was that ErgData had disconnected, so there is no record (other than in my head).

Reset after some rest and completed the final two segments pretty much to planned rate, which is what I should have done from the start.

[MartinSH4321]

Actually, Mike Caviston has a story about that too. I don't remember all the details, but I think it goes like this: When he trained his girl team, sometimes some of them hadn't done their homework, and as punishment they had to start their training session by walking up and down a stair tower. He discovered that PBs were quite often set in these training sessions, so he actually started including stairs in the warmup for PB attempts.

If you don't remember the details, you might as well just make them up? I appreciate being thought of as someone who might be worth quoting, but literally every statement here is incorrect and it reads like a silly parody of my original anecdote. Can't you just dig up the original? I do agree that warming up properly is a key to success in training and racing.

Here is what I believe to be the original story, from viewtopic.php?t=5373 (which was itself a repost):

An anecdote I have related before illustrates the point. Several years ago while coaching at Michigan in the pre-erg era, a staple workout was to have the team run a dozen times up (and down) a dozen flights of stairs in the tallest building on campus. Cumulative time for all 12 trips up & down would typically be in the 30-35’ range. The standard warm-up I required was to jog to the top & back at least twice before beginning the actual workout on the clock. Some athletes, as a penalty for various infractions during the previous week (late to practice, etc.) would also have to do two fast “penalty flights” within a specific time limit (or do more penalties), and within a couple minutes start the actual workout. So that meant 2 jog + 2 penalty + 12 workout flights. It quickly became apparent that not only were the athletes given the penalty flights NOT too tired to perform well – they took huge chunks off their best overall times; they performed MUCH better relative to past performances than their non-penalized teammates.

30-35' of stair running sounds brutal.

Thanks max, a lot of new imput I never thought of before

A 2k race WU of 7,5k is much more than I expected to be reasonable, I always have the fear to waste too much energy, but if Mike Caviston writes that many of his rowers had the same fear but were significantly faster at the end, that's something to be taken seriously.
To prevent me from getting too insecure I think I'll try a WU that's much longer than normal for me, including a few longer (300m?) pieces at race pace, maybe a total of 4-5k, and see how it feels.

I'll post my experience when done

[hjs]

Don,t forget that a guy Like Caviston or top otw people are used to high volume. A few k more means nothing for them.

[KeithT]

If you don't remember the details, you might as well just make them up? I appreciate being thought of as someone who might be worth quoting, but literally every statement here is incorrect and it reads like a silly parody of my original anecdote. Can't you just dig up the original? I do agree that warming up properly is a key to success in training and racing.

Here is what I believe to be the original story, from viewtopic.php?t=5373 (which was itself a repost):

An anecdote I have related before illustrates the point. Several years ago while coaching at Michigan in the pre-erg era, a staple workout was to have the team run a dozen times up (and down) a dozen flights of stairs in the tallest building on campus. Cumulative time for all 12 trips up & down would typically be in the 30-35’ range. The standard warm-up I required was to jog to the top & back at least twice before beginning the actual workout on the clock. Some athletes, as a penalty for various infractions during the previous week (late to practice, etc.) would also have to do two fast “penalty flights” within a specific time limit (or do more penalties), and within a couple minutes start the actual workout. So that meant 2 jog + 2 penalty + 12 workout flights. It quickly became apparent that not only were the athletes given the penalty flights NOT too tired to perform well – they took huge chunks off their best overall times; they performed MUCH better relative to past performances than their non-penalized teammates.

30-35' of stair running sounds brutal.

Thanks max, a lot of new imput I never thought of before

A 2k race WU of 7,5k is much more than I expected to be reasonable, I always have the fear to waste too much energy, but if Mike Caviston writes that many of his rowers had the same fear but were significantly faster at the end, that's something to be taken seriously.
To prevent me from getting too insecure I think I'll try a WU that's much longer than normal for me, including a few longer (300m?) pieces at race pace, maybe a total of 4-5k, and see how it feels.

I'll post my experience when done

Anxious to see how that goes for you - will help me decide if I need to change my warm-ups. You get the to be the test subject