Weight Training For Erging

[old] strez · Post by **[old] strez** » December 3rd, 2004, 3:40 pm

Say I want to do two weight sessions each week in my livingroom using a barbell and hand weights, and I have only about 30 minutes for each session. What lifting regime would you recommend to improve my long distance erg times (more interested in 10K than shorter pieces)? Thanks!

[old] allapologies916 · Post by **[old] allapologies916** » December 4th, 2004, 6:52 pm

hold the barbells in each hand and do jumpies... that will help, dont worry too much on the arms if you want long distance. Um, also... with the barbells in each hand, stand straight up. Then lean over so your body should be sort of in the shape of a seven ( 7 ). Then, keeping your body still, move your arms out to the side, sort of like flapping wings. Do about 12-15 reps and 2-3 sets (30 sec.-1 min. rest in between each set).... the best thing though is probably the jumpies even w/out the weights. Just stand straight up, bend your knees all the way down (you should be squatting), and jump up as high as you can. Do these in sets of 10-50. If your doing it right its pretty tough.

[old] cforce · Post by **[old] cforce** » December 5th, 2004, 2:41 pm

my coach's perspective is that weights are a must. Ergs are great for technique, sport specific eneudrance, conditioning, aerobic work, but weights are a must for power. I guess he figures that since we don't have the tallest and heaviest crew, we need to make up for it in power and explosiveness. this is a routine he has given us, what do you guys make of it? Monday (Legs) -cleans, -front squats -back squats -Deadlift -Lunges Tuesday (Chest / Back) -bench press -seated rows -bench flies -lat pulldowns -incline bench press -bench pulls Wednesday ( Arms / Shoulders) -military press -lateral raises- -curls -seated dumbell curls -french press -dips Thursday (Legs) -Cleans -front squats -back squats -leg press -hack squat Saturday (Chest / Shoulders) -Bench Press -Wide Grip chinups -Dumbell press -Bent over rowing -pushups -upright rows Currently we are working all lifts 3 sets of 12 reps ... after a month of this the reps decreases and weight increases and we specialize in maximal strength any thoughts ... btw sorry for hijacking your thread

[old] cforce · Post by **[old] cforce** » December 5th, 2004, 11:42 pm

^^^^ anyone?

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » December 5th, 2004, 11:42 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (cforce @ Dec 6 2004, 07:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> what do you guys make of it? ------ any thoughts ... btw sorry for hijacking your thread  </td></tr></table> I would say that every minute you spend lifting weights in an endeavour to row/erg faster would be better spent rowing and erging. Unless the exercise very closely mimics the rowing action then it's productivity is limited. If you have unlimited time to train(and recover) or if you are not given the option then do your weights. But untill you have exhausted the potential of your rowing training and 'need' something else then your time would be better spent on the machine or on the water. - George ps If you want to read an article on the subject drop me an e-mail.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 6th, 2004, 12:51 am

Allapologies916, Thanks for the exercises. Do you do these regularly?

[old] eurofoot13 · Post by **[old] eurofoot13** » December 6th, 2004, 1:47 am

Weights seem to be an integral part of most rowing programs. When you don't use weight training, you lose a lot of power that you can put to work in the boat. Ideally you'd want to choose rowing specific exercises. cforce, what does you coach have you at for percentages of max right now? as you up the weight ( go into the max strength cycle) , you should cut the exercise down to legs, back, lats, arms. you don't really need to strengthen your biceps, or make yourself all big and buff, that's just counter productive. Your entire goal with weight training is to simply increase your power/weight ratio. by putting weight on, you completely defeat the purpose of increasing strength. I'm currently in my max strength cycle, so I lift 3x a week doing squats, lunges, lat pulls, cleans, and occasionally, dumbell rows. that's it. I might hazard saying that your coach is giving you guys a lot of extra exercises to do, but he probably knows what he is doing. if you are still doing all these exercises 5 days a week in the max strength phase, I think you are probably doing too much, and aren't targeting rowing specific muscles enough. Also, George, I would agree that weights are no substitute for an erg/on water workout, they are a great supplemental workout.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » December 6th, 2004, 2:58 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (eurofoot13 @ Dec 6 2004, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> When you don't use weight training, you lose a lot of power that you can put to work in the boat.  </td></tr></table> Hi Eurofoot13 (is that Bigfoot ? ), on what do you base your comment (not disagreeing, but on what). I have no doubt you can become more powerful in some 'lifts' by weight training but that does not necessarily mean you can translate that to rowing power. I would say that in in regard to things like 'seated rows' or a 'seated leg press' I would be stronger now than I ever was when I lifted weights. I had an ex rower tell me the other morning I should be doing chin-ups to make me stronger, but did not want to point out to him that the movement is totally foreign really to erging ... but why argue when u can nod your head as you still have 6k to go It is an interesting discussion and I tend to think there are two reasons why a lot of weight training is added into programmes: 1/ Because it always has been so it must be right - stronger is faster right ; 2/ Because it adds variety for those who dont want to go thru the pain rowing. Like most of you who row in gyms I get funny looks from others for the amount of time and effort I put in, they sit on the machine for 5 -8 minutes and then go lift weights, the ususaly comment being that the rowing is just to tough.... I can 'get off on that' - George

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » December 6th, 2004, 5:01 am

c-force: I'd say your weight program seems reasonable. My guess is your coach is not trying to compensate for little weight by adding just power and explosiveness, but by also adding weight =) ? That's where weight training is king. This intense weight training will probably only be for a period. This is the time to add mass. Focus on this and eat well and sleep well, as always, but don't let the erg collect dust Strez, How much weights do you have, and how much can your living room floor handle? Do you have a rack for getting in under the bar and doing squats for example?

[old] eurofoot13 · Post by **[old] eurofoot13** » December 6th, 2004, 11:50 am

George, weight training has not always been done. in fact, it's only in the past 20-30 years that weights have been added in to rowing routines; that's why it was so revoloutionary in the mid 1980's when Brad Lewis started to train with weights. He won an olympic gold, perhaps he did it despite lifting, but I would rather think that he did it because of lifting. Also, many lifts don't look rowing specific, such as pullups. hanging pullups are quite possibly the single greatest and easiest exercise to improve your finish strength. They are a. a multi joint lift, so they improve coordination, and b. they work all of the muscles needed for a great finish. My coach stressed them last year, and my finish actually began to improve without any extra technical work. as I had more strength, I could hold pressure onto the oar longer, and keep the pocket behind it open longer, giving me such better finishes.

[old] anthonys · Post by **[old] anthonys** » December 6th, 2004, 3:33 pm

Training is extremely sport specific. If you want to row faster in competition, row faster in training. Weight training may or may not be useful and which it is depends upon how you construct the workouts, where you place them in a time frame relative to your rowing training/competition, how frequently you do the weight workouts, how intensely you do them, how much volume there is, how your body reacts to the specific adaptations that the induced demands place upon your body, how much recovery time you provide yourself, what your motivation is globally and specifically, blah, blah. Case in point: I could care less about spending x+ hours a week working out. I did that 24 years ago when I set a PB in the 50 mile run of 7 hours 40 some odd minutes (I was 42 at the time). My primary purpose today is to be muscularly fit, able to use that muscular fitness at maximal intensity for a duration of 2 minutes, keep my body fat % less than 12 and my weight at 170. Now and again I like to row my C2 for 10k in 48 minutes, ride my road bike for 50 miles in 3 hours or so, and my mountain bike for 25 miles in a couple of hours. Because I have a life to live and work to do, I have achieved all those goals by strength training 20 minutes once a week for the past 4 years. For further information go to www.ultimate-exercise.com; www.baye.com; www.seriousstrength.com.

[old] jeffwegner · Post by **[old] jeffwegner** » December 7th, 2004, 1:48 am

I agree with the principle of specificity. If you want to row better, row more. Before I started the holiday challenge, here was what I was toying with using the PM3: 20 second bursts with 40 second rests x 8 for 2 weeks then 30 second bursts with 30 second rests x 8. I was going for a personal best in the 2k. But since I tend to stuff my face between the holidays, I decided to do the holiday challenge instead. Since rowing is essentially a pulling motion, I believe weight training should place a little more emphasis on the pushing motions -- bench press and shoulder press and then something for the hamstrings (leg curls, stiff legged deadlift). For balance, squats and pullups. cforce, I'm a little concerned that your coach is over training you. Especially considering you're only 16. At that age compound movements should be the bulk of your weight training. And why include seated rows and upright rows when you are a rower? This might be interfering with the whole mind-muscle connections that you are trying to optimize. But if it's working for you and your team.............heck, stick with it.

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » December 7th, 2004, 2:27 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (cforce @ Dec 5 2004, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> my coach's perspective is that weights are a must. Ergs are great for technique, sport specific eneudrance, conditioning, aerobic work, but weights are a must for power. I guess he figures that since we don't have the tallest and heaviest crew, we need to make up for it in power and explosiveness. this is a routine he has given us, what do you guys make of it?  </td></tr></table> Weights are not are must, but I think are beneficial to all sports. For rowing I agree with Jeff regarding working the muscles in weight training that don't get worked in rowing for muscular balance and to help keep you free from injury. Ergs are great for technique if you really work at it, but usually technique suffers on an erg. Be real careful that you erg like you want to row on water. I like to video the athlete and have them watch it with me to correct technique mistakes. I also would hope your coach is closely watching the team on their erg training and giving them help correcting technique errors they may be making as they try to get better erg times. I think it's more aerobic strength that will allow a smaller and shorter crew to beat a larger crew which is typically more powerful. My training for this type of crew would really emphasize and work your aerobic capacity. During the off season I would be building a solid endurance base. As for your current weight training, I think it's too much too often. It definitely works the same muscle groups too many days in a row. If you're going to do a split routine working different muscle groups each day, you have to be sure to allow a rest day in between using the same muscles. For example, the bench press and dips use your triceps and they are done on consecutive days. Plus every workout day involves your arms on one or more exercises. You are not giving some muscles groups a chance to rest and recover. Based on what you've written, it sounds to me like your training program isn't quite what it should be.

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » December 7th, 2004, 6:09 am

I have deviced very effective muscle gain programs for myself. To do this I tried to make it so that my muscles got as much rest as possible between workouts given chosen dedication. I know there is no perfect way get the puzzle together. Arms are the smallest muscles and therefore needs least time to recover and handle consecutive exposure to training days better than legs. Try focusing on getting the muscles that you are supposed to train primarily tired. This way you will be in less danger of over training. cforce, the program you have is something I would do with only small changes if I was trying to gain (no cleans)! It's a lot if you are doing any training more than that, like rowing, but good. Make sure to get proteins directly after training and you can feel confident that you will gain in mass and strength. If one does not believe in having an intense period to gain mass is good for this specific rowing team, then the program is not so good.

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » December 7th, 2004, 6:45 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I had an ex rower tell me the other morning I should be doing chin-ups to make me stronger, but did not want to point out to him that the movement is totally foreign really to erging ... but why argue when u can nod your head as you still have 6k to go </td></tr></table> hmmm.... Ok, so how exactly do you finish your stroke without using lats and biceps then?