Training for 30 minute max distance

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DeFacto
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Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by DeFacto » January 10th, 2020, 10:25 am

Hello all; I'm new to the forum and looking for some training direction.
I recently returned to rowing after a 9 year hiatus. Back then I would just hop on the rower and go for 30 minutes. I did that for about 5 years, my best distance was 7512 in 30, and though I did not record it I recall rowing 500m in 1:27. It took 4-5 years of rowing the first time around before I beat the 7500 goal I set for myself when I first started. I wasn't very disciplined and had no training method.

So I was looking at the training plans on here and noticed that the overwhelming majority of them are aimed at improving 2k times or they don't specify what they're training you for other than general improvement. I have a friend who is getting into rowing and he focuses exclusively on 2k's and 500m sprints.

Will interval work (like the Pete Plan) help me achieve better results on a 30 min max distance?
If it won't, what type of training would improve my max distance in 30?
By training for a 30 minute max distance, am I hurting my ability to row a fast 2k or 500m sprint? Do I have to pick one?

I am trying to take it somewhat easier on myself this time around since I'm older and no longer heal as fast, so I'm starting out by rowing 3x a week. As I improve I'm open to increasing that, but I'm trying to ease into it.

Any input appreciated!

MartinSH4321
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by MartinSH4321 » January 10th, 2020, 10:48 am

DeFacto wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 10:25 am
Hello all; I'm new to the forum and looking for some training direction.
I recently returned to rowing after a 9 year hiatus. Back then I would just hop on the rower and go for 30 minutes. I did that for about 5 years, my best distance was 7512 in 30, and though I did not record it I recall rowing 500m in 1:27. It took 4-5 years of rowing the first time around before I beat the 7500 goal I set for myself when I first started. I wasn't very disciplined and had no training method.

So I was looking at the training plans on here and noticed that the overwhelming majority of them are aimed at improving 2k times or they don't specify what they're training you for other than general improvement. I have a friend who is getting into rowing and he focuses exclusively on 2k's and 500m sprints.

Will interval work (like the Pete Plan) help me achieve better results on a 30 min max distance?
If it won't, what type of training would improve my max distance in 30?
By training for a 30 minute max distance, am I hurting my ability to row a fast 2k or 500m sprint? Do I have to pick one?

I am trying to take it somewhat easier on myself this time around since I'm older and no longer heal as fast, so I'm starting out by rowing 3x a week. As I improve I'm open to increasing that, but I'm trying to ease into it.

Any input appreciated!
There's also a 5k PP
https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/5k-training/

I guess this will work pretty good, maybe some little adaptions (I won't do the 3x2k for example)
Martin, 1983, Austria, 186cm / 100Kg
RHR: 43, MHR: 174
LP: 1:06, 100m: 14.0, 1': 387m, 500m: 1:21.4
1k: 3:05 2k: 6:43, 5k: 17:58, 30': 8130m, 30R20: 8088m 10k: 37:05
60': 15779m, HM: 1:21:57
rowing since Jun18, 4mm in Apr20

jamesg
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by jamesg » January 10th, 2020, 11:01 am

A lot depends on your age, shape and size. A 1:27 500 would say you're quite large, so a 200W 30' would not be a problem if you develop a good stroke. Then it's only a problem of endurance.

For a 2k the endurance is needed in any case, plus some anaerobic for sharpening, if you want to squeeze out the last few seconds.
08-1940, 183cm, 87kg. Last seen MHR 162, in 2k (2020-05-16) 8.47.5@24

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ampire
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by ampire » January 10th, 2020, 12:25 pm

I am still a beginner at rowing but from my own experience, my 30 minute distance went up by doing a lot and quickly by doing a couple 10KM each week regularly. I think you might lose some of your 500M performance but gain a good amount of aerobic performance. Aerobic performance helps greatly with 2K. Your 500 is quite fast relative to your 30 minute so you are quite anaerobic. Probably doing aerobic work will make you a more rounded athlete and there are probably greater health benefits to having a good 30 minute distance. From my reading, getting a lower heart rate and lower amount of blood lactate at which you complete a given wattage for a given time will make 30 minute, and other aerobic workouts including 2K easier. That requires a good amount of aerobic steady state rowing, like a workout of 2x30 min UT2. Do that a few days a week and still do a speed workout day of 8x500 each week I think.
Last edited by ampire on January 10th, 2020, 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
M34|5'8"/173CM|150lb/68KG|LWT|MHR~192BPM|2020: 5K 18:52.9 (@1:53.2/500)|C2-D+Slides

H2O
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by H2O » January 10th, 2020, 12:43 pm

1:27 for 500m is better than 7500m for 30 mins. So you seem to have more power than endurance. This suggests that you approach the 30 mins "from below", i.e. training at distances below 30mins and paces above 30min pace, then try to extend it to 30 mins on a lucky day.

This is really possible. In an all out time trial on a lucky day you can be substantially faster (or maintain pace longer)
than in bread and butter hard workouts.

Doing only 30 min rows will not get you near your potential especially starting from an out of shape state. In the beginning it is much better to do shorter higher intensity rows since these will get you in shape much faster and you are
not yet sharp enough to hurt yourself with such rows (i.e you can do lots of them).

I would start with intervals (e.g. 3mins, rest 1min, repeat), stroke power at least 9W per stroke (e.g. >=180W with 20spm), then increase the stroke power, stroke rate, number of repetitions, lengthen work phase, shorten rest phase etc). You should be breathing hard, full focus needed.
Do something else (bike, treadmill,...) for low intensity before and after.

Once in shape you could structure the week as follows:
hard1 / easy / hard2 / easy /hard3 /rest, where

hard1:
3 x 1500m, rest 6mins, pace slightly slower than 2K pace, this should be a frightening set.
hard2:
20 mins nearly all out, spm >= 26 (more like 27-28)
hard3:
12 mins nearly all out, spm >= 29

The easy days: longer low rated rows (18-20spm) with focus on stroke power , e.g.:
1 hr 18spm 10W/stroke
30 mins 19spm 11W/stroke
(1-2) x 20 mins, 20spm, 11W/stroke, rest to full recovery

(I do 20 mins of these even after hard sets). These will seem easy in that there is not much respiratory distress
but the HR will go up substantially anyways.

For example when I do 20 mins 19 x 11W I hit at least 140 when fully rested (max HR: about 172). You can adjust the power per stroke as fits your profile. I consider less than 8W per stroke for a reasonably fit, not too old, reasonably tall male rower to be an indication of severe technical faults. In that case reduce the stroke rate and concentrate on good strokes.

Another suggestion: for 30 mins the stroke power has to be reduced, in my case:
1K: 11.5W/s, 2K: 10.5W/s, 30 mins 9.5W/s.
If I try 11W/s on a 30 min row the result will be sub-optimal to say the least.

If you want to row only 3 times a week, do only the hard stuff (frame with warmup, cool-down, some other low intensity work).

Good luck and let us know how you are progressing.

MartinSH4321
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by MartinSH4321 » January 10th, 2020, 1:13 pm

H2O wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 12:43 pm
...
The easy days: longer low rated rows (18-20spm) with focus on stroke power , e.g.:
1 hr 18spm 10W/stroke
30 mins 19spm 11W/stroke
(1-2) x 20 mins, 20spm, 11W/stroke, rest to full recovery

(I do 20 mins of these even after hard sets). These will seem easy in that there is not much respiratory distress
but the HR will go up substantially anyways.
...
This SPIs won't help him, his current level is >7,5k for 30' (or >203W), a 30R19 with SPI 11 is already 209W, I guess that's your training routine?

Looking at his 1:27 500m I estimate his stroke power is more than sufficient for reaching his goal, he has to work on his aerobic capacity, so long low rate sessions are good, but propably more like 10k-1h, R18-20, around 150W.
Martin, 1983, Austria, 186cm / 100Kg
RHR: 43, MHR: 174
LP: 1:06, 100m: 14.0, 1': 387m, 500m: 1:21.4
1k: 3:05 2k: 6:43, 5k: 17:58, 30': 8130m, 30R20: 8088m 10k: 37:05
60': 15779m, HM: 1:21:57
rowing since Jun18, 4mm in Apr20

H2O
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by H2O » January 10th, 2020, 1:52 pm

MartinSH4321 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 1:13 pm
This SPIs won't help him, his current level is >7,5k for 30' (or >203W), a 30R19 with SPI 11 is already 209W, I guess that's your training routine?
It was intended as a guideline once he is in shape.

nick rockliff
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by nick rockliff » January 10th, 2020, 3:07 pm

If all you want to do is improve your distance for 30 mins, this is quite simple to do.

First you need to set a base line, row a couple of 30 mins to see where you are. Once you can reproduce a distance without killing yourself, extend the time to 36 mins and see if you can complete the time at the same pace as the 30 min.

If you can't maintain the 30 min pace don't worry, just slow down a tad so you can finish the session. Next time go for the pace you achieved for the 36 mins until you are comfortable then speed up a tad until you can achieve the 30 min pace.

Once you can do 36 mins at your best 30 min pace you can then set about increasing 30 min pace/distance.

All you do is keep repeating this.

You can train like this for most distances. Training like this will improve 2k times but not sure about 500m times.

Hope that makes sense......
63 6' 4" 103kg
PBs 2k 6:16.4 5k 16:37.5 10k 34:35.5 30m 8727 60m 17059 HM 74:25.9 FM 2:43:48.8
50s PBs 2k 6.24.3 5k 16.55.4 6k 20.34.2 10k 35.19.0 30m 8633 60m 16685 HM 76.48.7
60s PBs 5k 17.51.2 10k 36.53.3 30m 8263 60m 16025 HM 79.49.2

lindsayh
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by lindsayh » January 11th, 2020, 3:52 am

DeFacto wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 10:25 am
So I was looking at the training plans on here and noticed that the overwhelming majority of them are aimed at improving 2k times or they don't specify what they're training you for other than general improvement. I have a friend who is getting into rowing and he focuses exclusively on 2k's and 500m sprints.
Will interval work (like the Pete Plan) help me achieve better results on a 30 min max distance?
If it won't, what type of training would improve my max distance in 30?
By training for a 30 minute max distance, am I hurting my ability to row a fast 2k or 500m sprint? Do I have to pick one?
Your friend won't improve his 2k performance a lot by just doing 2k pieces but 500s will improve too.
To do a faster 2k race/TT you need to so longer aerobic pieces like 5k/30' and the PP type intervals.
IMO the Pete Plan won't really help 30 ' TT goal - the 5k plan might as well as the other suggestions above - lots of longer meters working on fitness.
Think 4x 15'/2'R and other longer intervals at faster than goal pace as well.
As long as you do some fast PP type intervals then your 2k will probably be helped as your aerobic fitness improves.
IMO your 500 will suffer as you lose some of the anaerobic fitness - really hard to do it all (that is what happened to me)
Worth doing it though - better for fitness and long term health
Lindsay
68yo 91kg
Sydney Australia
Forum Flyer
PBs (65y+) 1 min 349m, 500m 1:29.8, 1k 3:11.7 2k 6:47.4, 5km 18:07.9, 30' 7928m, 10k 37:57.2, 60' 15368m

Dangerscouse
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by Dangerscouse » January 11th, 2020, 6:07 am

lindsayh wrote:
January 11th, 2020, 3:52 am

Your friend won't improve his 2k performance a lot by just doing 2k pieces but 500s will improve too.
To do a faster 2k race/TT you need to so longer aerobic pieces like 5k/30' and the PP type intervals.
IMO the Pete Plan won't really help 30 ' TT goal - the 5k plan might as well as the other suggestions above - lots of longer meters working on fitness.
Think 4x 15'/2'R and other longer intervals at faster than goal pace as well.
As long as you do some fast PP type intervals then your 2k will probably be helped as your aerobic fitness improves.
IMO your 500 will suffer as you lose some of the anaerobic fitness - really hard to do it all (that is what happened to me)
Worth doing it though - better for fitness and long term health
Agreed. All of my distances improved from 2k upwards with doing a lot of long steady distances with regular 5k / 30 mins / 10k TTs too. Variety is very important and as Nick was mentioned you need to get better at further than you want to achieve as the mental and physical benefits always filter down.

As well as those intervals, add in some 10k / 12k / 45 mins sessions with a variety of paces and stroke rates. This could be applied with one single session e.g. pyramid stroke rates divided either my metres or minutes or on different days.

Keeping the body constantly challenged is the key to quicker progress as you will adapt too quickly to the same session over and over again. I stagnated many years ago as all I did was 10km four times a week at the same pace and stroke rate.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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DeFacto
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by DeFacto » January 11th, 2020, 4:19 pm

Thankyou all for the replies!
jamesg wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 11:01 am
A lot depends on your age, shape and size. A 1:27 500 would say you're quite large, so a 200W 30' would not be a problem if you develop a good stroke. Then it's only a problem of endurance. For a 2k the endurance is needed in any case, plus some anaerobic for sharpening, if you want to squeeze out the last few seconds.
I'm a bigger guy but not in a good way. I'm 30, 5' 8" [172cm] and right at the 200lb mark [90kg] A recent broken arm and 4 month recovery pushed me firmly into fatty territory. Rowing was recommended by my Physical Therapist, so here I am. Rowing unstrapped doesn't alter my stroke but I'll see about recording myself to see where I can improve. These are my stats since I started rowing again.

01/03/20 7,356m 30:00.0 2:02.3 First time on the rower in years. First 30 minute session, Level 7
01/07/20 7,331m 30:00.0 2:02.7 Level 7
01/09/20 7,486m 30:00.0 2:00.2 Level 7, drag factor in the 160's
01/11/20 500m 1:38.3 1:38.2 Level 7, drag factor in the 160's - feel like I need to try this again on L10, stroke rate was very high
01/11/20 2,000m 7:46.1 1:56.5 L7, drag factor in 160's. Performed right after the 500m sprint with about a minute's rest
H2O wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 12:43 pm
Doing only 30 min rows will not get you near your potential especially starting from an out of shape state. In the beginning it is much better to do shorter higher intensity rows since these will get you in shape much faster and you are not yet sharp enough to hurt yourself with such rows (i.e you can do lots of them). I would start with intervals (e.g. 3mins, rest 1min, repeat), stroke power at least 9W per stroke (e.g. >=180W with 20spm), then increase the stroke power, stroke rate, number of repetitions, lengthen work phase, shorten rest phase etc). You should be breathing hard, full focus needed. Do something else (bike, treadmill,...) for low intensity before and after.
Ok, how many reps of the intervals would you recommend? 8? I'm at the worst shape of my life right now, so when would I consider myself to be in shape and able to handle moving to the rest of the plan you outlined? (I'll probably do 5/10 mins low intensity cycling before and after)

Based on the advice given in the thread, I'm thinking of this training regimen to start for the next 6 weeks:
8x Intervals (3 mins/1min rest), 8k, 8x Intervals, 10k, 8x intervals
Every other week or so I think I'll swap out the 8k for a 30 min row just to see where I stand, since that's a more traditional goal for me. While it might be an unrealistic goal maybe someday I'll make it into the 8k in 30 minute club. That would be my pie in the sky goal.

Once the 6 week break-in period is over I'll either go with H2O's outlined plan or the Pete 5k Plan
Does that seem reasonable, or like I don't know what I'm doing? (I probably don't, so I'm open to correction)

DeFacto
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by DeFacto » January 11th, 2020, 4:29 pm

nick rockliff wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 3:07 pm
If all you want to do is improve your distance for 30 mins, this is quite simple to do.

First you need to set a base line, row a couple of 30 mins to see where you are. Once you can reproduce a distance without killing yourself, extend the time to 36 mins and see if you can complete the time at the same pace as the 30 min.

If you can't maintain the 30 min pace don't worry, just slow down a tad so you can finish the session. Next time go for the pace you achieved for the 36 mins until you are comfortable then speed up a tad until you can achieve the 30 min pace.

Once you can do 36 mins at your best 30 min pace you can then set about increasing 30 min pace/distance.

All you do is keep repeating this.

You can train like this for most distances. Training like this will improve 2k times but not sure about 500m times.

Hope that makes sense......
This does make sense; I'll probably use this method in a few months once I'm a little bit better broken in to rowing. I'd REALLY like to make it into the 8k in 30' club. I like the 30' format a lot, mostly a holdover from my teen years when that was the only metric I used to measure my progress. I suppose I'm attached to it for sentimental reasons.

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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by H2O » January 13th, 2020, 4:46 pm

DeFacto wrote:
January 11th, 2020, 4:19 pm
Ok, how many reps of the intervals would you recommend?
It all depends on the pace. You are now at about 200W for 30 mins (which is good for being out of shape).
You could try 216W for the intervals at 24spm (9W/stroke).
In the beginning it is not too important how many reps you do since you have to find out at which pace you can do how many reps.
It's only important that you breathe hard. So you try a couple and when out of breath put in a longer rest.
Once you have found out how this feels you would increase the pace, lengthen the rest as needed.
For me doing 3min on/1 min off at 110% of 30min Watts would be pretty hard to repeat 4 times, very hard to repeat 5 times.

The idea is that you do a hard interval then follow up with some easy rowing. On interval day you would not only do the interval, instead warmup (2K+), the interval, some easy rowing. This gets you to 6K+ on interval day.

DeFacto
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Re: Training for 30 minute max distance

Post by DeFacto » February 12th, 2020, 5:11 pm

H2O wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 4:46 pm
It all depends on the pace. You are now at about 200W for 30 mins (which is good for being out of shape).
You could try 216W for the intervals at 24spm (9W/stroke).
I never tried to pace myself with wattage before, but since you suggested it I tried it and it was definitely an improvement. Before I was trying to pace myself with the average per 500m reading, which made for very inconsistent strokes (which I didn't even realize)
Since switching to watts I'm much more consistent with my pace. Thanks!
H2O wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 4:46 pm
For me doing 3min on/1 min off at 110% of 30min Watts would be pretty hard to repeat 4 times, very hard to repeat 5 times.
Yeah. Impossible for me. But! I am improving! The first time I tried this I could barely make it 3 intervals. I can do 4 intervals at 220 now :D
H2O wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 4:46 pm
The idea is that you do a hard interval then follow up with some easy rowing. On interval day you would not only do the interval, instead warmup (2K+), the interval, some easy rowing. This gets you to 6K+ on interval day.
I'm also doing this. My minimum for most days is 6k. The only flaw that I've found in this so far is that I can't row in high volume; ~30k meters a week is the most I can do without some knee pain. So I'm varying my training plan with Tabata intervals, the intervals you described (3Min/1Min), low SPM 2k distances, and 10k steady state rowing where I hold my 30 minute pace for 10k meters (Per nick rockliff's suggestion).
I'm rowing 3-4x a week and I'm hoping as I get more broken in with rowing that I can row longer distances.

My current bests:
500m : 1:31.3
1000m : 1:44.5
2000m : 7:19.4
10000m: 39:52.4
30 Mins: 7574m

I appreciate the feedback and assistance!

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