Where are my gains?

[mitchel674]

Please allow me to wallow in a bit of self-pity. I've been rowing now fairly consistently for the past 2.5 years. Typically row 5 days a week with average monthly distances of 160km. Mostly a slow, steady rower who focused on distance this past year and completed over 20 HM and a FM. Now doing some Maffetone HR capped training for the past 6 weeks.

Now where are my gains? I still have a weak and slow stroke. I typically do my steady state work at 20-22spm at 2:20 pace. I will admit to being in the best shape of my life at 55 years old. Very lean with minimal body fat, but I've lost so much weight from all of this rowing that I am now down to my lowest weight in 40 years (154lbs). My endurance for other sports (skiing, biking and tennis) has improved significantly.

However, I still have poor power on the erg. Take a look at my power curve. Long, low, smooth curve. This is my typical steady state pattern.



Any thoughts or suggestions?

Sorry for the rant, but it sucks being so weak!

[boomingaway]

You haven't mentioned any rowing time trials, so how do you know if you have or have not made gains?

Besides this, I watched a Travis Gardner video on youtube today which addresses the force curve. Cliffs of it are that you need a lot steeper looking force curve that yours. If by getting it, that means your pace is too fast and you are not in the right heart rate zone anymore, then that means your drag factor is too high. So get your force curve steeper. If that means your pace is too fast, lower drag factor.

[Allan Olesen]

What I am writing now may be obvious, but right now it is not obvious to me if it is obvious to you - so here goes...:

What are you keeping constant, and what are you trying to change?

If you row with a target stroke rate and a target pace or power, your stroke energy is given and can't change.

A low power curve is basically equal to a low stroke energy (assuming that your stroke length is unchanged). So your power curve won't change either, except perhaps getting a nicer form as your technique improves.

So if you want a higher power curve, you will need to do one of these:
- lower your stroke rate while maintaining the same pace or power as before.
- increase your power or lower your pace while maintaining the same stroke rate as before.

[mitchel674]

A low power curve is basically equal to a low stroke energy (assuming that your stroke length is unchanged). So your power curve won't change either, except perhaps getting a nicer form as your technique improves.

So if you want a higher power curve, you will need to do one of these:
- lower your stroke rate while maintaining the same pace or power as before.
- increase your power or lower your pace while maintaining the same stroke rate as before.

This is the crux, but I wonder if my training regimen has just conditioned me to have a weak stroke. I don't do any time trials but I do keep a watch on my pace during my long rows. My endurance is quite good at this point. I don't think I could lower my stroke rate any more. I do most work at 20-22spm. I also do not want to just increase my rate to increase my pace and still have my weak stroke.

Perhaps it's a technique thing or perhaps I'm just destined to have a weak stroke. I doubt I could pull below 7:50 2k at this point.

[mitchel674]

You haven't mentioned any rowing time trials, so how do you know if you have or have not made gains?

Besides this, I watched a Travis Gardner video on youtube today which addresses the force curve. Cliffs of it are that you need a lot steeper looking force curve that yours. If by getting it, that means your pace is too fast and you are not in the right heart rate zone anymore, then that means your drag factor is too high. So get your force curve steeper. If that means your pace is too fast, lower drag factor.

I'm not a time trial kind of guy. No interest in speed or competing (since I'm so slow). What got me thinking today was a look at my force curve for the first time in a long while. Very disappointing. Pulling just 140w for most of my steady state pieces which is where I do 95% of my training.

[boomingaway]

This is the crux, but I wonder if my training regimen has just conditioned me to have a weak stroke. I don't do any time trials but I do keep a watch on my pace during my long rows. My endurance is quite good at this point. I don't think I could lower my stroke rate any more. I do most work at 20-22spm. I also do not want to just increase my rate to increase my pace and still have my weak stroke.

Perhaps it's a technique thing or perhaps I'm just destined to have a weak stroke. I doubt I could pull below 7:50 2k at this point.

This is just not true. Someone rowing at 3:00 with great technique, will have a good looking force curve. There is something wrong with your technique if your force curve is that flat. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ovL6KombI

If you don't do a time trial, you don't actually know if you have become better or not. A true 100% effort is the best way to measure fitness.

[nick rockliff]

OK, if you are doing steady state work to a HR max and using a fixed low rate, the only variable is pace.

What should be happening is that your pace for the same HR cap and fixed rate should be getting faster as you get fitter.

If this is not the case you may be setting a HR cap which is too low for your physiology so has little or no training effect.

Are you doing any overload sessions like 30r20 with no HR cap? You need to overload to move forward.

Your force curve looks like you drive is too slow. Drag too high? Not enough Effort?

[mitchel674]

This is the crux, but I wonder if my training regimen has just conditioned me to have a weak stroke. I don't do any time trials but I do keep a watch on my pace during my long rows. My endurance is quite good at this point. I don't think I could lower my stroke rate any more. I do most work at 20-22spm. I also do not want to just increase my rate to increase my pace and still have my weak stroke.

Perhaps it's a technique thing or perhaps I'm just destined to have a weak stroke. I doubt I could pull below 7:50 2k at this point.

This is just not true. Someone rowing at 3:00 with great technique, will have a good looking force curve. There is something wrong with your technique if your force curve is that flat. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ovL6KombI

If you don't do a time trial, you don't actually know if you have become better or not. A true 100% effort is the best way to measure fitness.

I watched that video earlier today. That's what got me looking at my own force curve this morning.

[mitchel674]

OK, if you are doing steady state work to a HR max and using a fixed low rate, the only variable is pace.

What should be happening is that your pace for the same HR cap and fixed rate should be getting faster as you get fitter.

If this is not the case you may be setting a HR cap which is too low for your physiology so has little or no training effect.

Are you doing any overload sessions like 30r20 with no HR cap? You need to overload to move forward.

Your force curve looks like you drive is too slow. Drag too high? Not enough Effort?

Nick, thanks for chiming in.

My average drive time is typically 0.78 seconds. My drive length is usually 1.36m. I've settled on a DF of 108 for the past year.

Not enough effort? Perhaps. I do seem like I'm working. Build up a good sweat and typically get my HR to 135-140 on long rows.

More 30r20 without a HR cap might help. Perhaps I should abandon my Maffetone effort at this point.

[ampire]

OK, if you are doing steady state work to a HR max and using a fixed low rate, the only variable is pace.

What should be happening is that your pace for the same HR cap and fixed rate should be getting faster as you get fitter.

If this is not the case you may be setting a HR cap which is too low for your physiology so has little or no training effect.

Are you doing any overload sessions like 30r20 with no HR cap? You need to overload to move forward.

Your force curve looks like you drive is too slow. Drag too high? Not enough Effort?

Nick, thanks for chiming in.

My average drive time is typically 0.78 seconds. My drive length is usually 1.36m. I've settled on a DF of 108 for the past year.

Not enough effort? Perhaps. I do seem like I'm working. Build up a good sweat and typically get my HR to 135-140 on long rows.

More 30r20 without a HR cap might help. Perhaps I should abandon my Maffetone effort at this point.

I did the Maffetone style stuff from February through July and it was worthless for me. I made very little gain despite doing 80-100KM/Week at 135BPM cap. I never saw any improvement in my split relative to heart rate. I went back to doing % of 2K watts to set my training bands, using low rates between 16 and 20 SPM for my steady state, and I am noticing improvement again, though I am typically training at a higher heart rate range. I row at a low drag factor of 95. My power curve is really nice and steep as a result, I am only doing about 50KM/Week instead as my workouts are more demanding. I go based upon how I feel and stopped caring about HR other than to look at long term trends. Typically, a lot of my 30 to 60 minute workouts end up around 155 BPM on average.

I've been loosely following the % 2K watts from the Fritz Hagerman / lactateband spreadsheet.
500M 138% 1KM 117% 2KM 100% 5KM 82% 30 Min 73% 10KM 71% 40 Min 69%
UT2 50% UT1 60% AT 70% TR 105% AN 110%

If what you are doing isn't working, you should try something else.

[mitchel674]

OK, if you are doing steady state work to a HR max and using a fixed low rate, the only variable is pace.

What should be happening is that your pace for the same HR cap and fixed rate should be getting faster as you get fitter.

If this is not the case you may be setting a HR cap which is too low for your physiology so has little or no training effect.

Are you doing any overload sessions like 30r20 with no HR cap? You need to overload to move forward.

Your force curve looks like you drive is too slow. Drag too high? Not enough Effort?

Nick, thanks for chiming in.

My average drive time is typically 0.78 seconds. My drive length is usually 1.36m. I've settled on a DF of 108 for the past year.

Not enough effort? Perhaps. I do seem like I'm working. Build up a good sweat and typically get my HR to 135-140 on long rows.

More 30r20 without a HR cap might help. Perhaps I should abandon my Maffetone effort at this point.

I did the Maffetone style stuff from February through July and it was worthless for me. I made very little gain despite doing 80-100KM/Week at 135BPM cap. I never saw any improvement in my split relative to heart rate. I went back to doing % of 2K watts to set my training bands, using low rates between 16 and 20 SPM for my steady state, and I am noticing improvement again, though I am typically training at a higher heart rate range. I row at a low drag factor of 95. My power curve is really nice and steep as a result, I am only doing about 50KM/Week instead as my workouts are more demanding. I go based upon how I feel and stopped caring about HR other than to look at long term trends. Typically, a lot of my 30 to 60 minute workouts end up around 155 BPM on average.

I've been loosely following the % 2K watts from the Fritz Hagerman / lactateband spreadsheet.
500M 138% 1KM 117% 2KM 100% 5KM 82% 30 Min 73% 10KM 71% 40 Min 69%
UT2 50% UT1 60% AT 70% TR 105% AN 110%

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I'm all for steady state rows, but I have a lot of trouble keeping my heart rate below 135 because my pace seems so slow. Perhaps I'm just frustrating myself but trying to put such a low HR cap on these rows. I feel much better when I get my HR up around 145.

[ampire]

My force curve looked like a pancake until I really started doing a lot more rows at both low rate and higher wattage.
I just generated this nice parabola:
https://i.imgur.com/9IXcrxn.jpg
You can set your erg data to display peak force. You can eyeball it during the workout and try to get it higher.

[Dangerscouse]

Perhaps I'm just frustrating myself but trying to put such a low HR cap on these rows. I feel much better when I get my HR up around 145.

If you were just using RPE, you'd use 145 as a cap, so I'd do that, and trust your intuition.

If you're not improving, you need to change the plan, and don't assume that there is a one size fits all method. I know some people who really benefit from quite a lot of grey zone training, me included, albeit it was for a fairly limited period of time.

Adapt and assess. That is all you can do, and look for any benefits when you do. Just knowing you have done something to address it, will give you a mental fillip.

[mitchel674]

Perhaps I'm just frustrating myself but trying to put such a low HR cap on these rows. I feel much better when I get my HR up around 145.

If you were just using RPE, you'd use 145 as a cap, so I'd do that, and trust your intuition.

If you're not improving, you need to change the plan, and don't assume that there is a one size fits all method. I know some people who really benefit from quite a lot of grey zone training, me included, albeit it was for a fairly limited period of time.

Adapt and assess. That is all you can do, and look for any benefits when you do. Just knowing you have done something to address it, will give you a mental fillip.

Stu, thanks for your thoughts. Perhaps a non-HR capped 30r20 tomorrow morning will get me out of my funk.

[winniewinser]

I was going to chip in earlier but don't want to assume that what works for me will work for others. As others have said it's very personal and HR training doesn't seem to benefit all.

Personally I've found it useful and have dropped from 2:17ish to 2:08ish with a 130 HR cap. It's coincided with my need to avoid anything much harder due to suspect heart issues. BUT what I've lost is the resistance to pain having not done any hard sessions. Anything over blue zone feels a lot harder than it did before.

So swings and roundabouts for me.