Are lightweight rowers always going to struggle with pace on shorter distances?

[iain]

while power decreases with age, i thought there was evidence that this can be reversed, just means us older guys need to weight train and have more protein! That said, weight has a huge impact on 500 times, but less at 2k. Re the FS pace predictor, it only really works from 1k to 10k. Many people can beat their 500 prediction by up to 3S! using 1 min or 100m is not recommended! Basically below 1k stroke rate can be increased much higher. 35SPM is low for a heavyweight, over 40 is normal for a lightweight in condition!

The incremental gains vary between people, with few fit rowers losing as much as 5S/500m on doubling as predicted by "Paul's Law".

What i would say is that the nature of the suffering changes below 5k when we are building oxygen debt. An all out 2k requires you to keep going at an unsustainable pace in pain from 800 - 1500 and then going even faster! An all out 500 means legs losing function with 100m to go and an ugly short stroke thrash to the finish with pace decreasing despite the effort. Many people actually lose part of their vision at that time! Not for everyone!

Another possibility is that you do your 5k at a high stroke rate. Unless you are one of the lucky few you will need 2 full breaths per stroke for most of the 2k and getting this in can reduce the maximum sustainable stroke rate. As an asthmatic I cannot maintain >30SPM, although some can manage up to 36. If you are trying to rate too high, your breathing can get out of sync with the stroke and you either reduce the size of one of the breaths(and hence suffer from reduced oxygen/stoke) or lose power as you can't use your core properly on the drive. If this is the reason for your lower relative 2k performance, you need to row at lower stroke rates to increase the power of your strokebefore trying to rate up with a similar work per stroke.

Best of luck.

- Iain

[Tsnor]

I find the weight adjustment calculator interesting, does that really reflect what my equivalent output might be if I were a HWT? I'd love to smash out those times, that would give me a 1:30 500m and a 6:30 2k.

Weight adjustment is for a very different purpose. A boat sinks lower with heavier rowers. That increases drag. The weight adjustment attempts to credit lighter rowers for the lower drag they add to a boat.

The C2 formula adjusted splits are for a hypothetical 270 pound person in an 8 seat racing boat. (more info on weight adjust here: https://www.concept2.com/news/why-use-w ... calculator) and on the calculator page. So the weight adjustment results say your 7:22 2K makes the 8+ boat go just a fast through the water as a 270 lbs rower pulling a 6:30 2K. A coach using the weight adjustment calculator to compare a 130 lb rower to a 150 lb rower would convert both rowers numbers into the 270 lbs equivalent then directly compare those numbers.

I don't know of any rule-of-thumb for projecting rowing split gains from changing your weight (either up or down). It's not even clear if gaining or losing weight makes you faster or slower - based on current body fat, muscle mass, etc.

Aside: pulling a 7:22 2K after 5 weeks on the erg is pretty strong. Take a victory lap. You must have brought a strong aerobic base with you to hit that.

EDIT:

.. and I had no idea about the sweat thing! I've definitely been a "puddle of sweat under the erg" guy... Will actually start using that fan I have sitting next to my erg...

THIS ^^^^^

If you end up doing long rows at room temps (60F and up) fans are critical. Search the forums for "industrial fan" threads. 16" to 20" is a good size. Bonus if you find the thread with a ceiling mounted fan picture... l wanted to link it but couldn't find it. Looked great.

[RWAGR]

What’s the sweat thing?? I have always sweated a ton and I quite like the triumphant feeling of being drenched post a hard workout!

[Sakly]

If you end up doing long rows at room temps (60F and up) fans are critical. Search the forums for "industrial fan" threads. 16" to 20" is a good size. Bonus if you find the thread with a ceiling mounted fan picture... l wanted to link it but couldn't find it. Looked great.

Probably it was a picture of my setup
I also cannot find the thread where I posted it, but my current setup looks like this

Picture is not showing the 20" fan completely, but it's hanging from the ceiling using a wooden beam the fan is put on.
Really like the air stream from the front directly pointing on me.
Added a "remote" switch, so I can access the fan from the rower and switch it on during the row.

Found the "original post", I showed it in "What training have you done today" thread:
<- click enlarges picture.
You can see the fan fully, this was before update of the sound system.

[Dangerscouse]

What’s the sweat thing?? I have always sweated a ton and I quite like the triumphant feeling of being drenched post a hard workout!

I have got an 18 inch fan next to me and I still sweat a lot, so don't worry about it. Sweating is a consequence of an efficient system and some people sweat more than others. I've always been a drencher.

[dabatey]

At least part of the sweat is evaporated through moving up and down the slide. Much worse on the bike turbo trainer where you don't move at all.

As for lightweight disadvantage. How big you see that disadvantage is very much dependent on your definition of light. I'm 60kg and for running that's fine. For cycling it's light but still great for going up hills. For C2 rowing it's a huge disadvantage. I look at the C2 rowing definition of lightweight@75kg and see it as a bit out of sorts with real life (and other sports). In boxing lightweight is 63kg. Even middleweight is 72.5kg.

[Sakly]

I look at the C2 rowing definition of lightweight@75kg and see it as a bit out of sorts with real life (and other sports). In boxing lightweight is 63kg. Even middleweight is 72.5kg.

Boxing has 16(!) weight categories. If you want to stick to one, it is difficult to get a value which makes sense for comparison at all - and this applies to all different sports, as different body types/attributes will have a more or less huge impact to the result/outcome.

[iain]

I remember a debate on impact of weight within the FS Forum, the consensus was (IIRC) that 1kg weightloss was worth about 1S in a 2k for people in the 6:10 - 6:40 range. What was unclear was whether this was low due to an offsetting loss of muscle, I have experienced hitting a low where loss of weight started to effect the pace I could achieve (ie muscle loss exceeding benefits of lower mass to move around even at sprinting ratings above 50SPM).

OTW IIRC lightweight is 71.5kg. 75kg OTE was set top allow competition in the offseason as many serious lightweights add strength in the off-season and so cannot maintain OTW weight, but it was thought appropriate to have a similar cohort eligible. Of course now that there are many OTE rowers who don't row OTW, there is an additional contingent who could not realistically maintain lightweight OTW but can with the increased limit.

In any event, the limit is deliberately set high recognising that rowing suits larger people and wanting to make competing accessible to as many interested individuals as possible. What I would say is that the difference reduces for longer rows.

PS having done some calculations, even the modest 1S / 2k increase for a 1kg decrease in weight, rather than being offset by strength losses as mentioned above, is more than twice the expected saving from not having to move that weight around. I am tempted to suggest that loss of belly fat might allow a slightly longer stroke, but I don't think people as quick as that are usually restricted on their catch position by a beer belly. The only reason I can think is that much of the balance may be due to psychological effects of feeling fitter and believing that they can go faster, although I would be happy to hear any alternative reasons others can come up with.

- Iain

[Elizabeth]

Getting within the range of times that you're talking about is absolutely possible as a lightweight male. A lot of performance gains are on the scale of months and not weeks, so keep training consistently and they will come.

You can filter the online rankings for age group, sex, and weight category to get a better idea of where you land to those comparable to you.

[Yankeerunner]

Have any other lightweight rowers experienced similar frustrations?

As Elizabeth pointed out, it takes time. The longer you stick with it the better things will get.

That said, we're all a bit different. Even among lightweights some of us are more suited to the longer distances, either because of our backgrounds (I spent years as a marathon runner before using the erg) or mental approach (some of us tolerate long periods of time without getting bored).

I'm about your size (5'10" and 67-69kg). I started at age 52, and hit my peak at age 57. At that peak my best 2K was 6:55.7 (1:43.9/500m). My PBs were 500m 1:33.5 (2K -10.4), 1000m 3:19.2 (2K -4.3), 5K 18:22 (2K +6.3), 10K 37:39 (2K +10.0), 1/2M 1:21:31 (2K+12.0) and FM 2:47:26 (2K +15.1). For the most part I overcame my lack of power by using a higher stroke rate. I'd do 2Ks at 37-38spm, 5Ks at 32, 10Ks 31, and FMs at 26-28.

I'm not saying that it was good, or even typical, but it worked for me. If you keep at it you'll find what works best for you, and you may find that you have some five years of improvements ahead of you.

It's been 18 years of sliding down the other side of 'over the hill' ever since, but it's still very satisfying and sometimes even fun.

[Dangerscouse]

PS having done some calculations, even the modest 1S / 2k increase for a 1kg decrease in weight, rather than being offset by strength losses as mentioned above, is more than twice the expected saving from not having to move that weight around. I am tempted to suggest that loss of belly fat might allow a slightly longer stroke, but I don't think people as quick as that are usually restricted on their catch position by a beer belly. The only reason I can think is that much of the balance may be due to psychological effects of feeling fitter and believing that they can go faster, although I would be happy to hear any alternative reasons others can come up with.

- Iain

My only other suspicion is that you're able to breathe more efficiently. If there's more room for the diaphragm it will be more effective at expanding and expelling CO2. Breathing seems to be my biggest issue recently as I'm wheezing again when I go r28+, which has always been my comfort zone.

The mental benefits of feeling fitter also can't be underestimated, although that will vary from person to person.

[robhely]

I'm about your size (5'10" and 67-69kg). I started at age 52, and hit my peak at age 57. At that peak my best 2K was 6:55.7 (1:43.9/500m).

This is so encouraging and super impressive that you got a sub 7 2k at 57! That was probably in the top 10 on the LW rankings. I'm starting out at the same age as you did, so great to know that with several years of training a 7min 2k is achievable for a lightweight.

[robhely]

Getting within the range of times that you're talking about is absolutely possible as a lightweight male. A lot of performance gains are on the scale of months and not weeks, so keep training consistently and they will come.

You can filter the online rankings for age group, sex, and weight category to get a better idea of where you land to those comparable to you.

Good to know, I really enjoy rowing and feel like it's something I'm going to stick with, so the gains should eventually happen with the shorter distances.

I've been filtering the rankings and seem to be consistently around the 80% percentile with longer rows, which is why I was surprised to be down around the 50th for the 500m. I guess my ultimate goal is to be up around the 90th percentile for all the distances I row and possibly even getting into the top 10 for some. I know this is a long way off, but I'm super dedicated.

It feels like I can easily get a PB every week at the moment (and I do), but I have to resist the temptation to throw in too many hard out rows on top of my training. I was doing week 3 of the PP this week and when I saw 2 x 2000m intervals, of course I went out way too hard on the first one, shaving 5 seconds off my previous best time... Needless to say the second round wasn't pretty...

[robhely]

As for lightweight disadvantage. How big you see that disadvantage is very much dependent on your definition of light. I'm 60kg and for running that's fine. For cycling it's light but still great for going up hills. For C2 rowing it's a huge disadvantage. I look at the C2 rowing definition of lightweight@75kg and see it as a bit out of sorts with real life (and other sports). In boxing lightweight is 63kg. Even middleweight is 72.5kg.

I used to do a lot of road cycling and at the time got down to 68kg, which meant I was great at hill climbing. I once did a race in Hawaii where we cycled 56km from sea level to the top of a volcano that was 3050 vertical meters! It felt good to pass all the heavier guys who were struggling massively.

Yes, I agree that 75kg isn't exactly 'light' and whilst I'm heavier than you, I still think those 74kg guys are going to push out more watts than I'll be able to. I'm pretty fit, but I'd rather not have to rate up to 40spm+ to get good results. Having said that, I think I've put on a kilo or two of muscle mass since I started rowing 4-5 times per week. Or maybe it's just dodgy scales?

[iain]

Its not worth obsessing on, size isn't the only factor, the fact that you have maintained level of fitness will mean that your potential is higher than those of us that were couch potatoes previously and metabolically aged quicker! Also genetics play a huge part. All of us can only compete against ourselves and see what we can do. Only time will tell whether you are capable of meeting your long term aspirations. the good news is that most people in the 50-80th percentile will be training far below optimum so you don't have to be at the 90th percentile in potential to get to the 90th percentile!