High Drag factor and high stroke rate

[Tyler Durden]

Hallo,

I'm a absolute new to rowing and do not have much ideas about. I'm 47 years old, 209 pounds, 6'2" tall and from Austria. So my native language is german . I'm not new to endurance sports: Several Marathons, Ironmans, and time trial in the last years.

I had a serious cycling accident and started rowing to strengthen my back in October. In the last few days I started with the concept2 WOD and noticed that I am quite high up on the honor board. Yesterday I was placed 17th but my stroke rate was about 30 and the drag factor was 181. 153 Pulse, the idea was to average 280W (Cycling background ) When I reduce stroke rate and lower drag factor I can't pull those numbers and my heart rate is through the roof. (30,min best is 8k+, without warming up and while I ride a lot on the bike)

At 2:00min/500m, 30sr and Drag factor 160 I've 125 pulse, when i go lower in both, pulse rises. So at the moment this seems to be my sweet spot.

Should I train for lower stroke rates, and lower Drag factor, to get a harder pull? Technique?

Thanks for your answers, Nik

[iain]

There is no right answer, it is what works best for you.

Rowing at a low rate requires you to produce the same amount of work in a shorter period. This requires higher force. Cycling you apply power most of the time whatever the gear, but on rower this is only during the drive. Lower ratings mean more time recovering (ie resting) so within reason would normally be slower!

A number of cyclists find that there fitness is relatively better than strength. Broadly (ie within moderate levels) increasing stroke rate will push the load from strength to fitness and via versa, so it is not surprising that you prefer a higher rate than most rowers (assuming that you are not a track sprint cyclist), although you may find that you increase your strength and optimise at a lower rate through time. However I would have expected this to be more consistent with rowing on LOWER drag.

Rowing at a high DF often obscures some technical errors. Rowing at lower DF requires a faster drive and it is easier to maintain some errors such as rowing with bent arms fixing which would ultimately allow you to row even faster. There are good rowers that use very high drag with good technique, but it is unusual.

[jamesg]

You're doing well: 280Watts at rate 30. Suggest you learn how to pull that Power, or more, but at rate 25 and lower.

You will need to use a longer and quicker stroke at lower drag but higher force. Using two legs at once, not just one as on a bike, will make this easy for you if you use the correct sequences and posture.

You have the size, but whether this is practical or not depends on your shape and on your injuries. A coach at a boat club can explain how it's done. There's no lack of lakes in Austria.

[Tyler Durden]

Thanks for your replies.

As a result I start training for lower stroke rate, lower drag factor but more strength for the pull. I am sure that there are adjustments that can be made in technique and also in terms of physiological adaptation. I'll try.

I already have a relatively low body fat percentage and I notice that rowing makes me heavier and more muscular, which gets in the way of cycling. If I specialize my training in strength and explosiveness, won't I get even heavier?

In general, I've found that rowing seems to be a very healthy alternative to cycling. Rowing straightens my spine, which is already compromised by the cycling position. I notice this in everyday life, too, as I simply walk through life with a more upright posture.

Yes, there are actually tons of lakes in Austria where rowing plays a role. My hometown also has a rowing club and reservoirs where rowing takes place. I'm in contact with our rowing club, but I need to intensify this again now that I'm more involved myself...

[H2O]

To get a high stroke rate with high drag factor you have to shorten the recovery very much, i.e. rush forward very fast. This probably would not work in a boat and is not generally done on the ergo (probably since ergers do not want to develop habits that are detrimental for on the water rowing).
For why this could work on the ergo I only have the following theory: with a high drag factor you can reduce the peak force during the stroke and spread the entire force application more evenly over a longer drive to get the same power output.

In Starnberg (Germany) at the 30 minute ergo race I have seen one former 2K age group world champion follow this strategy, so there must be something to it. For me this does not work but if it works for you, go for it. A lot of stroke advice is tailored for on the water rowing, where the stroke technique is much more critical.

By the way: 8K+ is already pretty good, so you might consider going to the 30 min ergo regatta in Starnberg (close to Munich). We need more Austrian representation there anyway. Where in Austria are you located? I am down south in Carinthia.

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks for your replies.

As a result I start training for lower stroke rate, lower drag factor but more strength for the pull. I am sure that there are adjustments that can be made in technique and also in terms of physiological adaptation. I'll try.

I already have a relatively low body fat percentage and I notice that rowing makes me heavier and more muscular, which gets in the way of cycling. If I specialize my training in strength and explosiveness, won't I get even heavier?

In general, I've found that rowing seems to be a very healthy alternative to cycling. Rowing straightens my spine, which is already compromised by the cycling position. I notice this in everyday life, too, as I simply walk through life with a more upright posture.

If you're worried about putting on muscle, and you have enough spare time, why don't you do more long distance rows? I'd guess that lowering the drag factor will generally help with this issue too as the loading will be lighter.

I'd highly recommend after every row doing reverse planks, with a bridge, to open up the shoulders, chest and hips, and strengthening the glutes that all need some attention after a row.

[iain]

I already have a relatively low body fat percentage and I notice that rowing makes me heavier and more muscular, which gets in the way of cycling. If I specialize my training in strength and explosiveness, won't I get even heavier?

It does depend on the training as DM (Stu) says less impact of long slow rows, while sprint training (normally accompanied with weight training that has a bigger impact) will build more muscle. However I would say the biggest impact is that you are using more muscle groups rowing. Many distance cyclists have a very under developed upper body but have as muscular legs as many rowers. Do you find you put on muscle on your legs when rowing? Or is it the upper body where you have noticed this?

[Tyler Durden]

Thanks again for your replies.

Yesterday, I already took your advice to heart, and I think I've realized what I need to do differently: When I wanted to slow down my stroke rate, I pulled hard, but always took a short break at the end of the stroke. Then I easily slid back forward, were I immediately started the next stroke. Yesterday I moved the break to the beginning of the stroke (I think in a boat on the water this would be the moment, when the oars are prepared for water contact, this ist just very short, but it seems to make a difference). This way i can place the pull way harder from the beginning and my legs are more involved. Because of missing this short break, my legs did not have the same work to do and I replaced this by a higher stroke rate.

I'm "unfortunately" very muscular, which is why I specialized in time trials when cycling. I'm slow on the hills. When I was running a lot and did Ironmans, I didn't weigh 209 pounds, but more like 185 (and I was much faster on the hills). When I make myself small on the bike, I'm still able to keep up with my 360 to 380-watt threshold power on flat terrain. My body type gains muscle mass easily

Back training is part of my daily routine anyway. I couldn't do anything without it...

[H2O]

When I wanted to slow down my stroke rate, I pulled hard, but always took a short break at the end of the stroke. Then I easily slid back forward, were I immediately started the next stroke. Yesterday I moved the break to the beginning of the stroke

Ideally it is a fluid motion with no breaks.

[iain]

When I wanted to slow down my stroke rate, I pulled hard, but always took a short break at the end of the stroke. Then I easily slid back forward, were I immediately started the next stroke. Yesterday I moved the break to the beginning of the stroke

Ideally it is a fluid motion with no breaks.

+1, I have noticed that the last part of my recovery is ensuring that my arms are straight and lats locked for the drive when my head doesn't move significantly further forward so looks tro me like a pause in the movement of my head towards the PM, but I do keep moving. I think there was a discussion a little while ago that there may be a benefit of not pausing at front stops as there is a rebound from the forward motion that increases the start of the leg drive in a similar way to the efficiency of the running stride which allows much of the effort lifting the body to be regained in useful work.

[milansanremo]

Hallo,

I'm a absolute new to rowing and do not have much ideas about. I'm 47 years old, 209 pounds, 6'2" tall and from Austria. So my native language is german . I'm not new to endurance sports: Several Marathons, Ironmans, and time trial in the last years.

I had a serious cycling accident and started rowing to strengthen my back in October. In the last few days I started with the concept2 WOD and noticed that I am quite high up on the honor board. Yesterday I was placed 17th but my stroke rate was about 30 and the drag factor was 181. 153 Pulse, the idea was to average 280W (Cycling background ) When I reduce stroke rate and lower drag factor I can't pull those numbers and my heart rate is through the roof. (30,min best is 8k+, without warming up and while I ride a lot on the bike)

At 2:00min/500m, 30sr and Drag factor 160 I've 125 pulse, when i go lower in both, pulse rises. So at the moment this seems to be my sweet spot.

Should I train for lower stroke rates, and lower Drag factor, to get a harder pull? Technique?

Thanks for your answers, Nik

You're not the guy I rode with in Charlotte NC before you moved back to Austria....are you?

[Tyler Durden]

You're not the guy I rode with in Charlotte NC before you moved back to Austria....are you?

Sorry for my late reply. No I‘m not. I‘m just an Austrian guy, living here for my entire life.

I'm currently battling again my ulcerative colitis. I'm not physically restricted, but my digestion and what follows it are relatively far from healthy.

Nevertheless, and because I'm probably a bit crazy, I tried the 2000m today on a whim. Without a plan and without an idea: 6:59,3

I think I can do a lot better. My heart rate was only 160, probably because I didn't warm up long enough. Then I left at 1:35, which was too fast, and I had to row the second 500m in 2:00 to recover. But my head was still strong enough that I was able to finish under 7:00.

Drag Factor 166, Stroke Rate 30.

Probably not bad for the first attempt after half a year of rowing experience. ?

Nik

[Sakly]

I'm currently battling again my ulcerative colitis. I'm not physically restricted, but my digestion and what follows it are relatively far from healthy.

Nevertheless, and because I'm probably a bit crazy, I tried the 2000m today on a whim. Without a plan and without an idea: 6:59,3

I think I can do a lot better. My heart rate was only 160, probably because I didn't warm up long enough. Then I left at 1:35, which was too fast, and I had to row the second 500m in 2:00 to recover. But my head was still strong enough that I was able to finish under 7:00.

Drag Factor 166, Stroke Rate 30.

Probably not bad for the first attempt after half a year of rowing experience. ?

Nik

That's a quite good result! Especially under described circumstances, even if you think it does not restrict you.
Many struggle to get sub 7 for long times if ever
I agree, with a much better pacing strategy you could get this down by a few seconds.

[Dangerscouse]

Probably not bad for the first attempt after half a year of rowing experience. ?

Considering there are many of us who will never reach sub 7, this is an excellent result and a very significant milestone to break so early on.

[alex9026]

I'll echo the points above, you should be pleased with that. And especially revisit with a warm up (most of us will typically warm up for 20-30 mins for short pieces) and a pacing strategy (you're bang on 1:45) and I see no reason not to shave some time off.