Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[Dangerscouse]

- I conquered my Everest. I can't tell you how much of a mental block 3x2k has been. I've been dreading it and I'm sure 4x2k will be even worse.
- I didn't HD despite every fibre of my being wanting to after the second rep and the devil on my shoulder telling me it's fine.
- 2:02.5 isn't a terrible time and it gives me a new normal to work off of. I can carry on with the plan now knowing where my current level is.
- I'm back on the plan. 3 sessions in 5 days means it's becoming a habit again. Every missed day increases the chances of not restarting (and the excuses not to!).

This is a great mindset. I always suffer a dip in fitness after a week off, and you're starting to lose fitness after three days, due to your body's efficiency to remove any metabolic loads that are deemed unnecessary.

When doing the 4 x 2k, maybe set up the 2ks as 500m with no rests? Bite-sized chunks might just make it look more manageable, despite being exactly the same.

[reuben]

Week 19

10k - I felt OK, but couldn't quite hold my recent pace. I just didn't have the energy or whatever, and started slowing with about 4-5k to go, eventually finishing at an average pace that was 2s slower than last week's 11k.

5x800 2r - I did quite well (for me, anyway) on the recent 5x750 2r, so I was looking forward to this. Last time I increased my pace by 4s on the last rep, which told me that I didn't row the first reps hard enough. So this time I increased my pace by an additional 2s for the first two intervals, then by another 1s each of the next 2 intervals, then went at a not quite all out effort on the last rep. But yet again, I was able to increase my pace by 4s on the last rep. This tells me that I'm still starting too slow, and not getting as much as I should out of the session. Sure, I've had a few more weeks to improve, but this seems excessive - while the 4s increases on the last rep are nice little ego boosts, what they're really telling me (IMHO) is that I need to go still faster starting at the very first rep.

I hit a HR of 165, though, which I believe is my max or close to it, so I was definitely working the couple of reps.

The next session I see like this is 4x1k 3r. The intervals are 200m (25%) longer, but the rests are also 1 minute longer. I guess I should try to increase my pace by another 2s and hope everything balances out. I'll make a last second decision when the time comes and see how I fare, but I'm pretty much guessing at what's sustainable.

Code: Select all

Time 	Meters 	Pace 	Watts 	Cal/Hr 	S/M 	
17:37.1 4,000 	2:12.1 	152 	822 	26 	156
3:34.3 	800 	2:13.9 	146 	801 	25 	149
3:34.3 	800 	2:13.9 	146 	801 	25 	153
3:32.7 	800 	2:12.9 	149 	812 	26 	156
3:31.1 	800 	2:11.9 	152 	824 	27 	159
3:24.8 	800 	2:08.0 	167 	874 	28 	165

3x10 2r - I had some minor aches and fatigue from a different workout yesterday, but I managed to go 1s faster than the last time I did this, and I'm content with that (for now).

[PleaseLockIn]

Seem to be either plateauing or improving glacially slowly.

In weight training, erging or both? Weight training is hard and possibly you've tried to go too heavy too soon and your CNS isn't recovering quickly enough.

Do you also do lighter weights and higher reps or heavy lower reps? Maybe doing a bodyweight routine will be better for you? There's loads of exercises you can do, at a pace to suit your recovery, and if you add in resistance bands you'll definitely get benefits from it

Both. In weight training I tried to deadlift 90kg * 13 like a couple weeks ago and just wasn’t having it after 2 rounds. My grip was the weak point.

I used to do heavy lower reps but perhaps I should lower the weight and do higher reps. Or bodyweight routine. I will try lower weight higher reps, strength training 2x a week.

In erging I tried 4*1500m 3R and it was a small improvement over the last 3*2000m 4R but not much. The steady states are very, very slowly improving. HR barely coming down in steady - maybe I should do more steady in the summer. Intense stuff slowly improving. At least PE basketball is finally over… but exams not over.

5 months to go, got to drop many seconds to make it. Doesn’t help that university gym/erging area often closes these days - going to buy a membership somewhere else to keep erging.

But for intense things like 3*2000m 4R or more, going to turn it to 4*500m undefined rest (0 rest) for 3 intervals then 4R. Will try the advice given to someone else to see if I can mentally push harder.

[Nomark]

This is a great mindset. I always suffer a dip in fitness after a week off, and you're starting to lose fitness after three days, due to your body's efficiency to remove any metabolic loads that are deemed unnecessary.

When doing the 4 x 2k, maybe set up the 2ks as 500m with no rests? Bite-sized chunks might just make it look more manageable, despite being exactly the same.

Thanks. I had to force it a bit because my first reaction was disappointment, so I had a shower and took a step back and tried to think of any positives and there were a surprising amount.

I'll try that - Ill give anything a go because I just hate 2k reps. Maybe another mindset shift needed somehow, or maybe I'll be back in a routine when it next comes up and have an easier target so it won't be so daunting.

Anyway on with the plan. After some brief consideration of jumping to next week, I thought why rush things when I've lost a little fitness and could do with some more work before plowing ahead, so onto 14.4 yesterday, and what felt like a relative pleasure - 30 minutes SS. Not too long and not too quick. And it went as expected, nice and easy and some more metres towards getting back to my best. Accidentally did a perfect negative split - I wasn't paying attention to the screen, just trying to keep things feeling in the right zone. Very happy with that. 2:18.3 overall which is hard to judge as I've been quicker, but probably not as a SS, so it's hard to know without any HR data. For these I'll just ignore the times and be happy with the metres for now until I get some consistency back and can try and chip at the times again.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
30:00.0	6,504	2:18.3	132	754	22
6:00.0	1,264	2:22.4	121	717	22
12:00.0	1,274	2:21.2	124	727	23
18:00.0	1,303	2:18.1	133	756	22
24:00.0	1,322	2:16.1	139	777	22
30:00.0	1,342	2:14.1	145	799	23

An optional 500m reps sprint up next but I might substitute in a SS or skip to week 15s 10k. I think it will be more beneficial (and less soul destroying seeing a slower time!)

[Nomark]

5x800 2r - I did quite well (for me, anyway) on the recent 5x750 2r, so I was looking forward to this. Last time I increased my pace by 4s on the last rep, which told me that I didn't row the first reps hard enough. So this time I increased my pace by an additional 2s for the first two intervals, then by another 1s each of the next 2 intervals, then went at a not quite all out effort on the last rep. But yet again, I was able to increase my pace by 4s on the last rep. This tells me that I'm still starting too slow, and not getting as much as I should out of the session. Sure, I've had a few more weeks to improve, but this seems excessive - while the 4s increases on the last rep are nice little ego boosts, what they're really telling me (IMHO) is that I need to go still faster starting at the very first rep.

Sounds like another great week, well done. I wouldn't worry about the steady state times - I try not to although it is admittedly much more satisfying to watch them come down! In my eyes the purpose is just metres in the legs and lungs and every session is worthwhile and +/- a few seconds on the splits is just noise on the day. Going too fast is as bad as going to slow so as long as you listen to your body on the day it's a good workout.

I also agree with your sprint mentality. It is great to see a PB on the last rep but it usually means the earlier ones weren't quite hard enough. You must be getting much fitter right now then the plan predicts which is great. Again I wouldn't worry too much or jump down too far in splits as it may lead to a fly and die session if you go too fast - which, from experience, is no fun at all. Sounds like you are doing it the right way and tweaking the plan as needed to suit your improvements. I'm not sure if it's a positive or negative, but you won't be able to drop 4 seconds on the last rep forever, so enjoy it while it lasts lol.

[Dave Neve]

Hello

I just don't get why this plan gets so much attention and comments

It says it's for beginners and intermediates, then starts everyone off on day 1 with 5000m. No help whatsoever on spm, or watts or split times

i took one look at it and said that's rubbish, there are far better plans out there and plans with videos to watch IMHO

But I'm willing to learn so have I missed something?

Dave Neve

[PleaseLockIn]

Hello

I just don't get why this plan gets so much attention and comments

It says it's for beginners and intermediates, then starts everyone off on day 1 with 5000m. No help whatsoever on spm, or watts or split times

i took one look at it and said that's rubbish, there are far better plans out there and plans with videos to watch IMHO

But I'm willing to learn so have I missed something?

Dave Neve

5000m is very short for a steady state session. Research indicates at least 20min for aerobic benefit if I am not mistaken. If I had been somewhat taught properly or there was better teaching/coaching, could have done 5000m of rowing at a very slow pace. Many, many universities train their complete novices (often with little athletic background) much more intensively.

I found the advice of “keeping spm under 24” quite redundant - if anything it should be under 22. Pete could have at least mentioned the talk test, talking 50 syllables comfortably without rushing or Deep breath -> under LT1.

To be honest, I felt as if the plan was relatively bare-bones, and not very generalisable. It felt repetitive to the point I impulsively changed to another plan, partially cuz it was boring. Even in my East Asian university, where the rowing standard isn’t particularly high, many thought the progression of steady state volume was too slow. I thought there wasn’t enough low-rate work at the start, and not enough high rate work at the end.

Reuben - yes everyone is unique and yes people have different watts and spm. However various sports science researchers, coaches, etc. https://www.fasttalklabs.com/training/d ... atability/ Has suggested using low spm first. As this program is for general fitness and base building for new indoor rowers, perhaps 24 spm for steady was too high? I also don’t like there being insufficient steady state mileage. I felt as if there wasn’t enough base built, and that increasing steady state mileage is better than increasing the pace, often times.

Also thought too much emphasis on 2k, and intervals - perhaps they should’ve put some near-test or test pieces (think 6k, 30r20, 5k, 10k) replace some intervals. This is because base building is pretty slow, but building the peak could be done in 6-12 weeks.

Nomark - I also wouldn’t worry TOO much about the steady state splits, other than keeping it at low enough exertion/lactate to ensure I am training my endurance system and lactate clearance system. Stephen Seiler has a podcast on it. Found it interesting…

[reuben]

Hello

I just don't get why this plan gets so much attention and comments

It says it's for beginners and intermediates, then starts everyone off on day 1 with 5000m. No help whatsoever on spm, or watts or split times

i took one look at it and said that's rubbish, there are far better plans out there and plans with videos to watch IMHO

But I'm willing to learn so have I missed something?

I'm not an expert, but I'll take a stab at this.

Watts and split times are unique to each individual, and will remain so over your lifetime - there is only one you. spm should be ~18-21 for the longer steady state sessions, and higher for intervals, maybe 24-30, but this is also unique to each person. In my case, it took several weeks for me to become comfortable rowing intervals at ~26 spm, and I still rarely get to 28.

There's nothing wrong with using another plan, watching various videos, or piecing together you own plan. But it gets "attention and comments" because it works for a lot of people. Maybe you're not one of them.

[p_b82]

Hello

I just don't get why this plan gets so much attention and comments

It says it's for beginners and intermediates, then starts everyone off on day 1 with 5000m. No help whatsoever on spm, or watts or split times

i took one look at it and said that's rubbish, there are far better plans out there and plans with videos to watch IMHO

But I'm willing to learn so have I missed something?

Dave Neve

I feel that Pete specifically has not mentioned specific SPM's or paces because it is down to the individual but he goes on to explain the training zones of the sessions if you read all the info. And from doing that research one can extrapolate how they apply to the individual, and what sort of rates should be done on each piece.
A case of in isolation it might not be entirely clear, but with all the info already out there it's not that difficult to apply to the types of sessions in the plan.

It's also not really aimed at a "I've never rowed before" - as you say the assumption is that you can already row 5k even for his beginner plan.

I think because there's no emphasis on the rate/pace, other than "go faster than a named session before" allows for the individual to find and set their own pace, and improve at their own rate without any "pressure".

None of his plans give specifics in fairness - so it's not just a BPP factor.

So if you're a person that prefers to be told exactly what to do and follow that with absolute rigidity, then you're right, there will be plans by other people more suitable.

Prob better to create a separate thread if you want to get some discussion / comments from people who don't look in here.

[alex9026]

I haven't used the BPP, but ran a few cycles of the lunch hour plan last year with a degree of success and probably will again later this year in preparation for a 2k.

It's simple to follow, I like the cycle/rotation of interval sessions and the flexibility in the program. If novices can't stick to basics, they sure aren't going to adapt to a more complex plan. Rate and pace is personal, only you can figure that out.

[Dangerscouse]

There's not much to add to the above comments, other than IMHO, there's some flaws in the plan, but they're outweighed by the flexibility of letting people decide their own rules, to some extent, which is something that I believe Pete was intending.

As Peter alludes to, if you've never rowed before, starting a structured, albeit relatively simple plan isn't an ideal starting point. You need to learn the basics and build some rudimentary skills before you start looking to go to the next stage, and to be fair to Pete, I'd assume that this plan was probably created before the mini-explosion in erg plans.

[Nomark]

Hello

I just don't get why this plan gets so much attention and comments

It says it's for beginners and intermediates, then starts everyone off on day 1 with 5000m. No help whatsoever on spm, or watts or split times

i took one look at it and said that's rubbish, there are far better plans out there and plans with videos to watch IMHO

But I'm willing to learn so have I missed something?

Dave Neve

I think it's popular because it's very simple. No worrying about SR too much. Pace is set based on your own prior performance. And it builds week by week so it's very satisfying when you are on it because it feels like constant improvement.

To understand it and it's popularity I think you need to know a bit about it's history. All this is as far as I know, so there could be some mistakes. Pete created a 4(?) week repeating plan for himself to help hone his pace for 2k races. People kept asking him what it was so he shared it as the Pete Plan. It was based on Mike Cavistons Wolverine plan, but simplified by removing stroke rate and merging one of the four types of intensity from that plan into 3 different types of workout. Some people who'd asked for the plan found it too hard, so Pete created the beginner plan which could be completed in a lunch hour and in theory meant after 24 weeks anyone would be fit enough to tackle the 4 week Pete Plan.

There may be better plans out there but this one works, is simple, and gives positive feedback week by week. The lack of pacing info is quickly rectified after a couple of weeks as all pacing is based on previous performance. Stroke rate is not limited but occasionally there are reminders to keep it low for the steady state pieces. It depends how you look at it. The weaknesses you perceive are also it's strengths as it is very open to any level, as long as you can complete 5k, you just keep building on that. But it's not for everyone. It's long and for some of us without an erging background it can be tough after a few months, so the odd break has been helpful. It builds incrementally which some may find boring if they are already relatively fit.

It may be partially terminology as well that's confusing. Beginners and intermediates in a BPP sense is the sweet spot of people who can complete 5k but can't comfortably do 10k. It's not meant as a Day 1 plan for people who've never done anything and it's not meant for people who row for 45 minutes plus without much bother.

Which plans have you seen that you prefer and why? It may be that there are better and we all just found the most popular most simple one, so I would be interested to see what else is out there, especially for me post-BPP.

[Dave Neve]

Hello Nomark and all

Thanks for your explanations including the history of the Pete Plan

Dave Neve

[Joris]

This might be the biggest issue that you're not addressing. Progress isn't linear, nor rapid, so you need to learn to love the process and not focus on progress. When you just enjoy doing what you're doing, you'll go much further than focusing on your progress at a granular level.

Ain't that the truth. After a few weeks off I've lost a little pace. I didn't used to mind hard sessions because the endorphins came from setting pbs. Now I have to change my mindset because it's hard and I'm not pulling up any (personal) trees either. Hopefully the next one will come soon but it would be better to focus on the process and trust the results to come when they feel like it

I also planned to start my next post with the above quote from Dangerscouse because it gave me food for thought and indeed made me decide that I should not micromanage my performance too much. At the beginning, gains were easy to make, but by now the reality is probably that big beginner's gains are behind me.

Due to a holiday, I have again been unable to row much lately, but I had not yet posted my last sessions before that leave. So herewith:

* Week 20.2: 5 x 1.5k (11/4):
Met my target of 2:06 (+ 2:04 for the last rep) with great difficulty, which was an equaling of the same session in week 16.
Of course, I would have preferred a positive evolution, but given the irregularities in my workouts and my disappointing previous sessions, I was still happy with this performance.

* Week 21.1: 10k (13/4):
A fairly smooth session, where my heart rate had dropped back to a more usual level (unlike my previous ss sessions).

* Week 21.2: 4 x 1k (15/4)
As for the previous interval session, I tried to match my Week 16 performance, in this case splits of 1:59.
Unfortunately, I had to abandon this target already during the second rep. Since it is recommended to never quit a session, I still finished the remaining sessions as best I could. Result:

• Rep 1: 1:59
  Rep 2: 2:01
  Rep 3: 2:05
  Rep 4: 2:05

So disappointing session where I failed to meet a target for the second time during the BPP plan.
This week I hope to resume rowing again, with some quiet ss sessions back first.
My main goal is to be able to fit back in 3+ workouts a week and to enjoy the sessions, more than focusing on times.

[reuben]

* Week 21.2: 4 x 1k (15/4)
As for the previous interval session, I tried to match my Week 16 performance, in this case splits of 1:59.
Unfortunately, I had to abandon this target already during the second rep. Since it is recommended to never quit a session, I still finished the remaining sessions as best I could. Result:

• Rep 1: 1:59
  Rep 2: 2:01
  Rep 3: 2:05
  Rep 4: 2:05

So disappointing session where I failed to meet a target for the second time during the BPP plan.
This week I hope to resume rowing again, with some quiet ss sessions back first.
My main goal is to be able to fit back in 3+ workouts a week and to enjoy the sessions, more than focusing on times.

I've done this, and I'm certain that you and I aren't unique in this respect. Sometimes it's just an off day - stress, lack of sleep, nutrition, hydration, whatever. Sometimes it's that I'm just not quite capable of meeting my goal, or the goal that Pete suggests.

Given that you've been off for a while, it's not surprising. My personal experience, across many sports, is that it doesn't take long to recover fitness if the break is short. Hopefully the same will be true for you, at least this time.

In that vein -

Progress isn't linear, nor rapid, so you need to learn to love the process and not focus on progress. When you just enjoy doing what you're doing, you'll go much further than focusing on your progress at a granular level.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was a skinny young triathlete. When I had enough time to train, I noted that my progress often happened in discrete steps.

An example is that for months I would run a local ~10k route at the same pace, notably struggling and slowing on some of the rolling hills. Then one day I would suddenly be running 5s/mile faster, and I was faster up the hills, and felt better doing so. And this improvement would remain - it wasn't just a one off good day. A few months later another discrete improvement might happen, and again, for no apparent reason. Something just clicked in my brain or body, and I made a jump. It certainly helped that I would sometimes run that route twice in a single day, but what's really important is that my improvements were discrete, not gradual or continuous (linear or otherwise).

At this point in my rowing, I can still experience some newbie gains. However, short term successes like these are bounded by the number of times I've ridden the earth around one of its orbits of the sun. So far, I'm OK with that, as I still see a bright side - erging, hiking/backpacking, cycling, tennis, etc.