Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[reuben]

Reuben, we all go through peaks and troughs. So many variables from worrying about others to warmer weather to changes in diet besides the more obvious items you listed. Re longer sessions, if you don't like them, I suggest you do as intervals and perhaps chop each up with changes in pace & rate to keep it fresh. Some like to listen to music or films to help pass the time (although I find that there is more than enough to concentrate on keeping my pace, rate and technique solid).

I remember you suggesting splitting the SS rows into 2 or more intervals with short breaks, 1 min or so. It's a good idea, but I know that will make the session last even longer, so I tend to aim for a pace that I know I can hold through the entire row. If I lower my pace by 1 or 2s, that's OK, even though it will also extend the time required. I'm afraid that if I stop I might not restart! Putting the handle down is easy, picking it up again can be hard!

I think that my (mostly mental) block is 10k. Above that and I start to dread the session long before I sit down.

I typically turn on a radio when I row, but there's only so much that it can overcome. I think I'm just tired of rowing, at least for now.

I am in exact the same phase of the plan as you and I have also been struggling with stagnation for several weeks now.
But while it's obviously more fun to make quick and visible progress, I don't have any lack of motivation yet.

Some elements I have picked up from the advice of others:
* progress is not gradual, so don't micromanage your progress too much and above all try to appreciate your sessions and realize that every workout will eventually contribute to better fitness, even if it's not visible now.
* if certain sessions don't suit you, don't do them, or try to modify them a bit so that they are more tailored to your personal preferences, for example by dividing the longer sessions into two or more parts.

And some thoughts of my own:
* Since I started the plan in October, I've seen several people drop out, but I haven't seen anyone fully complete the plan. So also be aware that it would already be a great achievement if you complete this plan, regardless of the pace you put down at the end of the plan. At least that is a compliment I will give to myself if I manage to complete the plan.

* Instead of dividing the long steady state sessions into several parts, perhaps you could consider doing them at a slower pace? If I am not mistaken you are doing them at UT1/AT zone now? AT zone in particular seems better avoided for steady state sessions, but maybe you could even consider doing these sessions in UT2 zone? Or depending on the shape of the day, alternate your steady state sessions a bit between UT1 and UT2.
Personally, I finished my last three steady state sessions in UT2 and found it less boring than I feared.
Among other things, this new approach allows me to listen to podcast because in UT1 I found that too intense.

I knew I was in sync with someone in the BPP, but couldn't remember who. We're almost there!

I certainly don't expect a PB every time, and I'm not completely surprised when I take a half step, or even a full step, backward, either. Periodic stagnation, even regression, is expected, but ongoing lack of desire or motivation is somewhat different. Maybe it's burnout, but that seems sort of ridiculous when others have been erging for decades. But we all have different limits in the activities we try, as they appeal (or not) to us in different ways.

After completing the plan, I had thought about testing myself a few times in a 2k to see what my limit might be, but that holds less appeal than it did back in week 16 or 18. I figure that I should be able to maintain a pace within 2-5s of the 50th percentile pace of my group, so maybe 40-45th percentile. Not a great achievement, but not to be sneezed at, either.

I've also thought that maybe we should have a separate "BPP - experience and summary" thread for future BPP participants. I'm sure that there's a lot of good information in this thread, but no one in their right mind will read all 133 pages. I think it would be appropriate for those who start and quit to post as well. The reasons could be the usual, such as work or family obligations, or others like boredom, injury, and so on.

I'll make it. I just need to muddle through these last two weeks.

Thanks to both of you for your support.

[DJ1972]

* Since I started the plan in October, I've seen several people drop out, but I haven't seen anyone fully complete the plan. So also be aware that it would already be a great achievement if you complete this plan, regardless of the pace you put down at the end of the plan. At least that is a compliment I will give to myself if I manage to complete the plan.

* Instead of dividing the long steady state sessions into several parts, perhaps you could consider doing them at a slower pace? If I am not mistaken you are doing them at UT1/AT zone now? AT zone in particular seems better avoided for steady state sessions, but maybe you could even consider doing these sessions in UT2 zone? Or depending on the shape of the day, alternate your steady state sessions a bit between UT1 and UT2.
Personally, I finished my last three steady state sessions in UT2 and found it less boring than I feared.
Among other things, this new approach allows me to listen to podcast because in UT1 I found that too intense.

Just one week behind you, Reuben and Joris. I also had a difficult time too and it seems I have recovered somehow. We all have ups and downs. Keep rowing !

Week 22.1: My steady state have significantly improved. I do not split anymore into 2 intervals and I stay in my UT2. I do not push yet for lower times for steady state as I give more of my energy to the speed intervals. I have the difficult 4x2000m coming up.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
55:11.3	12,000	2:17.9	133	758	22	135
9:11.2	2,000	2:17.8	134	760	22	131
9:12.5	4,000	2:18.1	133	757	22	134
9:12.2	6,000	2:18.0	133	757	22	137
9:12.4	8,000	2:18.1	133	757	22	137
9:12.0	10,000	2:18.0	133	758	22	138
9:10.9	12,000	2:17.7	134	761	22	138

[iain]

Reuben, glad you are continuing. It is a tough time when the easy gains have been had. Somehow getting close to earlie best times is tough as the motivation is less than when ahead of what you have managed before! If you don't want to stop during SS, you can do what I do and set the PM on intervals with 0 rest. It does lose a few metres if you aren't pulling the handle when the intervals change over, but not significant in the end. The advantage is that you don't have to look at all that you have left to do and so it is easier to concentrate on each section separately. Somehow 5 lots of 2k is easier than 1 10K!

[p_b82]

<snip>
I certainly don't expect a PB every time, and I'm not completely surprised when I take a half step, or even a full step, backward, either. Periodic stagnation, even regression, is expected, but ongoing lack of desire or motivation is somewhat different. Maybe it's burnout, but that seems sort of ridiculous when others have been erging for decades. But we all have different limits in the activities we try, as they appeal (or not) to us in different ways.

I don't think it is ridiculous to consider burnout at all - I personally do not like the structure of "having" to follow a proscribed exercise routine.
On the day you just aren't feeling it, having to sit down and take on an activity you just don't want to do on that day - because a sheet/list/table says you should - becomes a mental battle I lose invariably.

When I did the FM, I followed one of the plans in the c2v2 training guide loosely (the 80k plan) for 4 months - with a pause for about 2.5/3 weeks to recover from a back spasm about 1 month out - and I couldn't face the erg for at least 2 weeks after I finished it. My body was ok after a couple of days but mentally I was done completely - I'd been on the erg 3x a week for nearly 2 years by this point.
But following the plan, and upping my training to 4/5 days a week including a long session on the weekends tipped it beyond enjoyment into chore territory.

[Joris]

I would go further and suggest lengthening the sessions beyond BPP. Now that I have a lot of time in the summer I might consider progressively lengthening UT2 to 90-120 minutes. In my experience it trained my mental toughness and patience!

Yes I also thought about (to compensate for the lower intensity), doing longer steady state sessions.
But I decided to stick with the BBP plan for now.
Once the BBP plan is completed, I probably also start incorporating longer steady state sessions, either by following a different rowing program like the standard pete plan, or by redoing some weeks of the BPP plan, but with some longer steady state sessions, for example an extra 500 meters every other week, just like the beginning of the BPP plan building up from 5k till 10k.

I remember you suggesting splitting the SS rows into 2 or more intervals with short breaks, 1 min or so. It's a good idea, but I know that will make the session last even longer, so I tend to aim for a pace that I know I can hold through the entire row. If I lower my pace by 1 or 2s, that's OK, even though it will also extend the time required. I'm afraid that if I stop I might not restart! Putting the handle down is easy, picking it up again can be hard!

Your total time on a 10km session will only increase by 20 seconds for every second you add to your split, so that's pretty much negligible.
But if you find it mentally difficult to make sessions even longer than they already are, you can also decide to set a specific time rather than a specific distance, say 45 minutes. That way you know your session won't be longer if you row slower.. And once you start rowing your steady states slower, maybe your energy level and desire will go back up. Because I can imagine that rowing +10k weekly in high UT1/AT zone can start to weigh heavy mentally.

I've also thought that maybe we should have a separate "BPP - experience and summary" thread for future BPP participants. I'm sure that there's a lot of good information in this thread, but no one in their right mind will read all 133 pages. I think it would be appropriate for those who start and quit to post as well. The reasons could be the usual, such as work or family obligations, or others like boredom, injury, and so on.

Good idea. Indeed, this thread is mostly interesting to share your daily experiences with others, but not to give an overall picture of the plan.

Week 22.1: My steady state have significantly improved. I do not split anymore into 2 intervals and I stay in my UT2. I do not push yet for lower times for steady state as I give more of my energy to the speed intervals. I have the difficult 4x2000m coming up.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
55:11.3	12,000	2:17.9	133	758	22	135
9:11.2	2,000	2:17.8	134	760	22	131
9:12.5	4,000	2:18.1	133	757	22	134
9:12.2	6,000	2:18.0	133	757	22	137
9:12.4	8,000	2:18.1	133	757	22	137
9:12.0	10,000	2:18.0	133	758	22	138
9:10.9	12,000	2:17.7	134	761	22	138

How have you defined your heart rate zones? Since my max heart rate seems to be close to yours but your UT2 zone seems to be my UT1 zone, with 143 being my UT1/OT border instead of UT2/UT1 border.

Previously I also rowed my steady state sessions around a heart rate of 130-140, but although I don't know my exact heart rate zones, the basic 220-age formula does seem like a pretty good rule of thumb for me where the accompanying UT1 doesn't make me dip into my reserves, but at the same time I also need to exert enough effort that I can no longer hold a relaxed conversation or listen to a podcast in a relaxed manner. For that reason, I think the zone you use as UT2 is definitely UT1 for me, even though our maximum heart rates seem to be about the same.
You experience sessions like the above one as UT2?

[DJ1972]

How have you defined your heart rate zones? Since my max heart rate seems to be close to yours but your UT2 zone seems to be my UT1 zone, with 143 being my UT1/OT border instead of UT2/UT1 border.

Previously I also rowed my steady state sessions around a heart rate of 130-140, but although I don't know my exact heart rate zones, the basic 220-age formula does seem like a pretty good rule of thumb for me where the accompanying UT1 doesn't make me dip into my reserves, but at the same time I also need to exert enough effort that I can no longer hold a relaxed conversation or listen to a podcast in a relaxed manner. For that reason, I think the zone you use as UT2 is definitely UT1 for me, even though our maximum heart rates seem to be about the same.
You experience sessions like the above one as UT2?

I found it on the Heart Rate band Calculator - you need to know your RHR and MHR
https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... /utilities

it takes into account your resting heart rate and this may be the reason.

I have been training in my 'UT2' feeling confortable, not out of breath and easily talking. I have kept the same zone to follow up progress. Below a threshold HR < 130, it is too slow and time is my limit.

[PleaseLockIn]

How have you defined your heart rate zones? Since my max heart rate seems to be close to yours but your UT2 zone seems to be my UT1 zone, with 143 being my UT1/OT border instead of UT2/UT1 border.

Previously I also rowed my steady state sessions around a heart rate of 130-140, but although I don't know my exact heart rate zones, the basic 220-age formula does seem like a pretty good rule of thumb for me where the accompanying UT1 doesn't make me dip into my reserves, but at the same time I also need to exert enough effort that I can no longer hold a relaxed conversation or listen to a podcast in a relaxed manner. For that reason, I think the zone you use as UT2 is definitely UT1 for me, even though our maximum heart rates seem to be about the same.
You experience sessions like the above one as UT2?

I found it on the Heart Rate band Calculator - you need to know your RHR and MHR
https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... /utilities

it takes into account your resting heart rate and this may be the reason.

I have been training in my 'UT2' feeling confortable, not out of breath and easily talking. I have kept the same zone to follow up progress. Below a threshold HR < 130, it is too slow and time is my limit.

Yes, there is a reason - UT3 is very slow and Z2 in cycling is often known as “all day pace” for this reason.

I agree with your intuition and Lydiard also will - his view is training at the top end of aerobic is better than the bottom end and more time efficient.

How do you barely have cardiac drift? Even in my true UT2 I often start off at 145bpm, get to 150bpm by 20 min and it drifts upwards to almost 160 by the end. I already use a fan and erg in the evening…

Week 13 Day 2 - 4*1000m 3R
Started at 2:03 r20, ended at 2:02.8 r20 or so but the middle 2 were around 2:05 r20 - not good. How come I can do 8*500m 2R at sub 1:59 r20 but this average around 2:04 r20?

Reached 195 this session - didn’t feel so good today. Learnt how to push hard - few months ago reaching 195 on hard sessions was on very good days! Now I can reach low 200s on good days in hard sessions!

[iain]

HR zones cannot be calculated (only approximated) by % calculations. The calculator used by Joris is %HRR. For untrained individuals the anaerobic threshold is often <75% HRmax! Do not know of a longitudinal study following how this progresses through different fitness stages. If you are tired or stressed then this definitely lowers achievable HRMax. Also, it is likely that slowing to 2:05 was at least partially mental rather than physical. Once I have conceded defeat to my plan, I never reach close to my limits. R20 at high work per stroke is usually limited by muscular endurance. On 500s you can manage to use a higher proportion of fast fibres than on 1ks, so I am not surprised that you were slower. On an all out Hour R20 my SPI dropped from nearly 9 to below 8. You were still at 9 on the "disappointing" intervals, much higher than you usually row, so not a bad row at all.

[p_b82]

How do you barely have cardiac drift? Even in my true UT2 I often start off at 145bpm, get to 150bpm by 20 min and it drifts upwards to almost 160 by the end. I already use a fan and erg in the evening…

Stealing some points from Tsnor a few years ago on a thread about this topic - why one might end up with drift.

On a long piece if you are seeing rising heart rates after 15 mins or so then one or more of these may apply:
1. You are dehydrated. Drink more.
2. You are overheated. Get a fan. A big one.
3. You are rowing too hard to stay below your first lactate threshold.
4. You have increased your workout duration, the drift should be at the very end.
5. You have external stress factors - Work/study/tiredness etc

Drift isn't really an issue if you're not at risk of over-training.

These zones are also not "rules" as they will have some variation for people (and more scientific testing is needed to really ID the HR's for the various transition points - HR is just an estimation).
my estimated RHR: 60 (don't wear a monitor 24/7)
my max observed Hr on the erg is 191 (but I use 190 for the banding)

for me I can see a very obvious deflection in my HR at ~150bpm (technically right at the top of UT2) - but I find it pretty much impossible to row with any value at this pace.
I can sustain ~160bpm "indefinitely" (fuel/fluid input appropriate) - which would be top end of UT1 for me technically.
I can row a HM with my HR in the mid 170's - technically TR by the "usual" banding - HM example - which is probably more like AT in real terms (due to supposed duration / physiological response of the various zones)
I personally don't start to feel "stressed" in terms of panting and struggling to get the breathing/work ratio right until my HR is nudging 180 typically.

As a result I push my "easy" work to ~160 my grey sessions to ~170 & anything above 175 I deem as "hard" - RPE tends to fall inline with this as well.

[Dangerscouse]

Drift isn't really an issue if you're not at risk of over-training.

I think that this summarises it perfectly. Lack of drift may look more enviable / impressive but in reality it doesn't mean that much, and it's not something I pay attention to.

Don't lose sight of the fact that steady state sessions, assuming you're wanting to get faster, are primarily there to make you go faster in the harder sessions. Lack of cardiac drift, when it becomes too much of a primary goal, could only encourage you to slow down too often, when the actual problems aren't anything to do with rowing too fast.

[reuben]

If you don't want to stop during SS, you can do what I do and set the PM on intervals with 0 rest. It does lose a few metres if you aren't pulling the handle when the intervals change over, but not significant in the end. The advantage is that you don't have to look at all that you have left to do and so it is easier to concentrate on each section separately. Somehow 5 lots of 2k is easier than 1 10K!

Another great tip. Thanks!

[reuben]

Just one week behind you, Reuben and Joris. I also had a difficult time too and it seems I have recovered somehow. We all have ups and downs. Keep rowing !

Week 22.1: My steady state have significantly improved. I do not split anymore into 2 intervals and I stay in my UT2. I do not push yet for lower times for steady state as I give more of my energy to the speed intervals. I have the difficult 4x2000m coming up.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
55:11.3	12,000	2:17.9	133	758	22	135
9:11.2	2,000	2:17.8	134	760	22	131
9:12.5	4,000	2:18.1	133	757	22	134
9:12.2	6,000	2:18.0	133	757	22	137
9:12.4	8,000	2:18.1	133	757	22	137
9:12.0	10,000	2:18.0	133	758	22	138
9:10.9	12,000	2:17.7	134	761	22	138

Ha hah, you may be one week behind me in the BPP, but your pace is about 8-10s faster than mine for 12k!

[DJ1972]

Ha hah, you may be one week behind me in the BPP, but your pace is about 8-10s faster than mine for 12k!

What counts is we keep rowing and fit. Targets and PBs are extra tools and keeps me motivated.

As for
Week 22.2 - 4x2000m always looks like a big mountain to climb. After the second rep - i am half way, it would be a pity not to see the view. However, my last 4x2k was at 1:58.6 but I managed my 5x1500 at 1:57.0 (to be matched). So the climb was in winter (not summer), but managed to beat twice my 2k PB in 3rd and 4th reps.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
31:12.5	8,000	1:57.0	218	1051	26	165
7:50.0	2,000	1:57.5	216	1042	26	159
r: 4:00	15						
7:49.0	2,000	1:57.2	217	1047	26	164
r: 4:00	18						
7:47.8	2,000	1:56.9	219	1053	26	168
r: 4:00	21						
7:45.8	2,000	1:56.4	222	1062	28	170
r54	

Overall, after a difficult 6 week period in March and April, improvement has been materializing again. I guess this is the magic of the plan, 24 long weeks to develop your CV, find and adapt the plan when needed and stay patient and motivated.

[Joris]

Ha hah, you may be one week behind me in the BPP, but your pace is about 8-10s faster than mine for 12k!

Don't worry, it's also 9 (UT1) to 15 (UT2) seconds faster than my two last 12k's.

As for
Week 22.2 - 4x2000m always looks like a big mountain to climb. After the second rep - i am half way, it would be a pity not to see the view. However, my last 4x2k was at 1:58.6 but I managed my 5x1500 at 1:57.0 (to be matched). So the climb was in winter (not summer), but managed to beat twice my 2k PB in 3rd and 4th reps.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
31:12.5	8,000	1:57.0	218	1051	26	165
7:50.0	2,000	1:57.5	216	1042	26	159
r: 4:00	15						
7:49.0	2,000	1:57.2	217	1047	26	164
r: 4:00	18						
7:47.8	2,000	1:56.9	219	1053	26	168
r: 4:00	21						
7:45.8	2,000	1:56.4	222	1062	28	170
r54	

Overall, after a difficult 6 week period in March and April, improvement has been materializing again. I guess this is the magic of the plan, 24 long weeks to develop your CV, find and adapt the plan when needed and stay patient and motivated.

Nice session and good to read that you are noticing progress again!
For the record, that last interval session is 10 seconds faster than my 4 x 2k from last week and I wasn't able to match with my previous 1.5k session (ended up one split second slower).

Week 23.2 [8 x 500m]

Last time I did this session was in week 17 when my performances were best so far.
Back than I rowed at 1:58 with the last rep at 1:54.
Yesterday I managed 1:57 with the last rep at 1:55.

So despite the slightly slower last rep, on average almost 1 second faster than last time. So, here as well, for the first time in a long time, an improvement on a previous best time, which feels good.

[PleaseLockIn]

Ha hah, you may be one week behind me in the BPP, but your pace is about 8-10s faster than mine for 12k!

Don't worry, it's also 9 (UT1) to 15 (UT2) seconds faster than my two last 12k's.

As for
Week 22.2 - 4x2000m always looks like a big mountain to climb. After the second rep - i am half way, it would be a pity not to see the view. However, my last 4x2k was at 1:58.6 but I managed my 5x1500 at 1:57.0 (to be matched). So the climb was in winter (not summer), but managed to beat twice my 2k PB in 3rd and 4th reps.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
31:12.5	8,000	1:57.0	218	1051	26	165
7:50.0	2,000	1:57.5	216	1042	26	159
r: 4:00	15						
7:49.0	2,000	1:57.2	217	1047	26	164
r: 4:00	18						
7:47.8	2,000	1:56.9	219	1053	26	168
r: 4:00	21						
7:45.8	2,000	1:56.4	222	1062	28	170
r54	

Overall, after a difficult 6 week period in March and April, improvement has been materializing again. I guess this is the magic of the plan, 24 long weeks to develop your CV, find and adapt the plan when needed and stay patient and motivated.

Nice session and good to read that you are noticing progress again!
For the record, that last interval session is 10 seconds faster than my 4 x 2k from last week and I wasn't able to match with my previous 1.5k session (ended up one split second slower).

Week 23.2 [8 x 500m]

Last time I did this session was in week 17 when my performances were best so far.
Back than I rowed at 1:58 with the last rep at 1:54.
Yesterday I managed 1:57 with the last rep at 1:55.

So despite the slightly slower last rep, on average almost 1 second faster than last time. So, here as well, for the first time in a long time, an improvement on a previous best time, which feels good.

Nice! 2 weeks later get that good taper and sub 8 2k is there! Just hold 1:59.9 at start and at last 300 blast it!

You are faster than me… the last 8*500m 2R I managed 1:59 ish at r20. Even if I allowed r24 or r26 I might not have squeaked out more than 1:55 or 1;54…

Week 13 Day 3 - 60 min UT2

Max HR 158, average HR 150, 2:27.9 r18, it’s just these annoying brief spikes that get near 160 but the body of the piece is ~150… but hey conversation is pretty easy.

The next weeks are going to be crucial. I only managed 8*500m 2R sub 2 r20… jumping to a 1:59 30r20 is a major step.

Oh I’m curious… what rating do you do these on?