Weight Training For Erging

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » December 7th, 2004, 6:49 am

Ha, you guys are funny. Do any of you ever listien to anyone but yourselves anyway? We are all giving our opinions but pretty much take others with a grain of salt. No one does anything anyone elses way, its what makes the sport beautiful. When it comes to weight training, do it or don't, it doesn't really matter. I know that 90% of the people I have seen that make leaps and bounds in terms of athletic performance in rowing and in other sports, credit the work they do in the weight room just as much as the work they do on the feild/water. But 90% is nto a 100% and no one follows the same weight routines. The msot important thing is that you act on whatever motivations you have. Wasting time is the biggest hinderance to improvement, and rationalizing is the devil. Do what you feel is right for you no matter what it is, and don't do what isn't.

[old] allapologies916 · Post by **[old] allapologies916** » December 8th, 2004, 10:16 am

I haven't been recently, although it's winter training so I havent really been doing it. However, when I had been doing them I noticed a drop in my erg scores. The jumpies help, but the exercises I gave are just ones specific to that person who only had barbells and a bar. However, jumpies with weights is great for explosion at the catch and a quick drive. Not to mention, if jump as high as you can every time, it will become an aerobic exercise very fast.

[old] neilb · Post by **[old] neilb** » December 11th, 2004, 1:22 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Kudos @ Dec 7 2004, 05:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Ha, you guys are funny. Do any of you ever listien to anyone but yourselves anyway? We are all giving our opinions but pretty much take others with a grain of salt.  </td></tr></table><br> Sound advice. There is so much theory and nonsense talked about weight training alone never mind how it relates to specific sports.<br><br>To row well you need to be fit, strong, flexible and have good technique. <br><br>Weights will help make you strong (sets of 12 will help build the bulk, not the strength, but maybe your coach has decided that you need more mass as the first step to then adding the power; check he isn't a bodybuilder in disguise though).but the time rowing will build the fitness you need better than anything and help get the technique right.<br><br>When you are young it is less of an issue but as I get older (I am 47 next month) I find that flexibility and keeping muscles "long" is key and pilates/yoga will help complement the rowing. <br><br>

[old] b sayyed · Post by **[old] b sayyed** » December 14th, 2004, 3:54 pm

One reason to add, or keep at, weight training, is to help prevent injury. Of course, weight training, if not done properly, can injure you, so get some help on learning proper technique. Also, some folks believe that certain weight lifting exercises are done using a large amount of momentum or ballistic force, and that can also be dangerous. These exercises include the classic Olympic lifts, and their modifications. Jumping with weights in your hand also seem more likely to me to cause injury than provide any special strength gains. <br><br>Your current routine seems way too much. I would suggest that anyone rowing hard more than 2 times a week probably need lift no more than 2 x a week. Also, while there is debate in the weightlifting/power lifting / bodybuilding community about how often one should lift, and what the best set and repitition schemes are for maximum strength or muscle development, for athletes looking to supplement their other sport training (either to increase their performance or to prevent injury), a limited number of safe, basic exercises, with moderately high repitions and minimum sets is probably sufficient. <br><br>The exercises I would recommend are (i) full squats; (ii) a good lower back / leg bicep exercise, such as carefully controlled stiff leg deadlifts (knees should be slightly bent at all times), or carefully performed hyperextensions or "glute ham raises"; (iii) a good upper body pressing exercise -- such as dips, incline bench presses, standing (or seated) overhead press); (iv) a good upper body pulling exercise, such as bentover rows done with cables, barbell, or dumbells, or chins/pullups, or close grip (palms facing you) pulldowns. While not necessary, you could throw in a few sets of curls and direct tricep work and some calf work (standing calf raises) and maybe some direct forearm work (wrist roller) without setting back your progress to much. (If you add them, add them occassionally, and not all at each workout.) I assume you are doing some abdominal work; if not, add that in a few days a week, after rowing workouts, or after the weights, with the idea of building muscle there -- hanging leg raises, bringing the legs out front, and to the side (alternatively) are very good and very tough. <br><br>The exercises above are basic, and cover the whole body with a minimum of time spent in the gym. A couple of sets of each, with reps in the range of 8-12 for upper body and 12-20 for lower body should help increase strength, help prevent injury, help balance out any imbalances caused by focus on rowing (pulling muscles) without draining you for rowing. Work hard on these few exercises, 2 times a week, get out of the gym in 45 minutes or less, and you will probably get all the benefits you would likely get from lifting, without draining you for rowing. <br><br>

[old] b sayyed · Post by **[old] b sayyed** » December 14th, 2004, 4:20 pm

To strez --- if you dont have anything more than a barbell, you could modify the exercises I mentioned a bit. You can perform squats with the barbell and weight placed under your butt -- that is, hold it with your arms hanging down holding the barbell behind your butt. They are uncomfortable, but workable. An alternative is one leg squats, with just bodyweight. These are tough. Also, while the standing overhead press is a great exercise, you might want to do some direct chest work on some days, using a variety of pushups, in place of anything that requires a bench to lie on. (If you have access to something that you can do dips on, that would be sufficient.)

[old] cforce · Post by **[old] cforce** » December 15th, 2004, 7:12 pm

Yeah I reviewed the schedule and realized it is a bit of overkill. For example, on Tuesday if you are doing bench press, that utilizes triceps and shoulders as well. Then on wednesday its arm day and i would be wroking the same muscles two days in a row. I've sort of dropped the intenstity a bit. I know have a leg day, an upper body push day and upper body pull day. We are now doing 2 shorter power ergs a week. (ie. damper of 8-10, pyramids of low rate explosive work)<br><br>

[old] makesureyoudoitright · Post by **[old] makesureyoudoitright** » December 27th, 2004, 4:58 pm

Weight training is absolutely crucial, go and watch tapes of the Mens Coxless fours race at athens 2004, does it look as if those guys dont lift weights? <br><br>Whilst people are quick to point out that the 2K is 70-80% aerobic, therefore the bulk of your training should be aerobic, what they dont realise is, that if you cant pull the handle hard enough each stroke to reach the limit of your aerobic potential, then it is pointless.<br><br>A marathon runner who can run a marathon in 2 hours is clearly going to be massively aerobically fit, I doubt however hed be able to go sub 7 in a 2K. <br><br>People say that pull-ups are nothing like the rowing movement, so are a waste of time. What a load of bollocks. Pull-ups work primarily the lats, a key muscle in rowing, if your lats are stronger, you will be able to pull the ore harder for longer, end of story. <br><br>Power is the key in rowing, that is, weightlifted/time lifted in. Now, theres two ways you can increase your power, by either lifting a given weight faster, or increasing the weight and lifting it in the same time. Now, if you were to do maximal strength training, you are increasing the amount of weight you can lift, but the time you lift it in will probably get slower, this does nothing for power in itself, however, when it comes to doing power training, later on in the season, you will be able to lift a heavier weight than before, and now you concentrate on lifting it faster and for longer, therefore increasing both your muscular power and endurance - clearly beneficial to rowing. <br><br>I personally find that during a 2K, the reason I go slower towards the end is because my legs ache, and Im not pulling hard enough, which is to do with muscular endurance and power, its nothing to do with the fact that Im 'knackered' because Im not aerobically fit enough...

[old] allapologies916 · Post by **[old] allapologies916** » December 27th, 2004, 5:58 pm

The exception is however, lightweights... YOu don't necessarily need to lift weights, but strength training is a must (it can be done on the erg)... and yes, without weights, you can go sub-7 min. for a 2k (i did it last spring and couldnt even leg press 500 pounds)

[old] grandslam · Post by **[old] grandslam** » December 27th, 2004, 6:17 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (anthonys @ Dec 6 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Training is extremely sport specific. If you want to row faster in competition, row faster in training. Weight training may or may not be useful </td></tr></table><br>Absolutely. Specificity is king: <a href='http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.ht ... s,<br>Jeff Sauter

[old] makesureyoudoitright · Post by **[old] makesureyoudoitright** » December 27th, 2004, 7:39 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (grandslam @ Dec 27 2004, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (anthonys @ Dec 6 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Training is extremely sport specific. If you want to row faster in competition, row faster in training. Weight training may or may not be useful </td></tr></table><br>Absolutely. Specificity is king: <a href='http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.ht ... s,<br>Jeff Sauter  </td></tr></table><br> Yes, its key, reading one website with some sketchy information means you should take what it says as gospel.

[old] Roland Baltutis · Post by **[old] Roland Baltutis** » December 28th, 2004, 12:37 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (makesureyoudoitright @ Dec 27 2004, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (grandslam @ Dec 27 2004, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (anthonys @ Dec 6 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Training is extremely sport specific. If you want to row faster in competition, row faster in training. Weight training may or may not be useful </td></tr></table><br>Absolutely. Specificity is king: <a href='http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.ht ... s,<br>Jeff Sauter  </td></tr></table><br>Yes, its key, reading one website with some sketchy information means you should take what it says as gospel. </td></tr></table><br>"Some sketchy information"<br><br>I wouldn't discount an article published in "Peak Performance " journal (available by subscription only, of which I am a subscriber) as easily as that. All their articles are based on actual test cases and not just assumptions. They are a well researched and respected journal. The web link that Jeff Sauter highlighted was just an extract of what was actually published, which went into far more detail. I enjoyed reading the full article.<br><br>I have also read other articles, based on test cases, where it was found that weight training improved on water rowing times for novice rowers but only added limited value for the more experienced elite rowers.<br><br>Keep it smooth, keep it relaxed<br>Roland Baltutis<br>

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » December 28th, 2004, 5:00 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (makesureyoudoitright @ Dec 28 2004, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> its nothing to do with the fact that Im 'knackered' because Im not aerobically fit enough... </td></tr></table><br>You make some interesting 'categorical' statements .... most of which I would say in a friendly manner are 'bollocks' .... I would say that while you may be aerobically fit for other endeavours this is a pretty good sign you are not for rowing.<br><br>I notice you also imply that the 'Peak Performance' article may not be credible and yet your assumption on the benefits of weight training is based on 'watching tapes" of the Athens Olympics?<br><br><br>I dont think anyone would question that 'sport specific' weight training has its benefits, however I would make the comment that if time and energy are in limited supply and you want to row faster then spend your time rowing not lifting weights ... and I would be happy to be proved wrong if you have the evidence to support the other position.<br><br>Here is a couple of quotes from other sources:<br><br>"Strength or power measured in non-rowing circumstances often seems to have little value when applied to rowing performance."<br>Fredrick Hagerman, rowing physiologist<br><br>"In rowing, supplementary resistance training programs are still advocated by most coaches. In the early 1970s it was common to employ a program of high-resistance, low repetition training during the pre-season period, followed by a gradual transition to lower-resistance, high repetition endurance work nearer the competitive season. But during the past decade emphasis has shifted to a greater volume of local muscle endurance work during the pre-season, with using more exercises that simulate the rowing action as the competitive period approaches. Bell, Petersen, Quinney and Wenger (1993) studied 18 varsity oarsman who undertook three different resistance training programs during their winter training. In addition to their normal rowing, one group performed 18-22 high-velocity, low-resistance repetitions, while another group did low-velocity, high-resistance repetitions (6-8 reps).<br>All exercises were rowing-specific and performed on variable-resistance hydraulic equipment four times a week for five weeks. A third group did no resistance training. After training, the high-velocity, low-resistance repetition group performed better in high-velocity movements, while the low-velocity, high-resistance group did better at low velocity actions. But when tested on a row ergometer, there was no difference between any group for peak power output or peak lactate levels.<br>The conclusion: training effects were specific to the resistance training mode and did not transfer to the more complex action of rowing. <br>Resistance training programs may actually restrict the volume of beneficial, sports specific training that can be achieved because of increased levels of fatigue."<br><br>regds George

[old] grandslam · Post by **[old] grandslam** » December 28th, 2004, 3:03 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (makesureyoudoitright @ Dec 27 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (grandslam @ Dec 27 2004, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (anthonys @ Dec 6 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Training is extremely sport specific. If you want to row faster in competition, row faster in training. Weight training may or may not be useful </td></tr></table><br>Absolutely. Specificity is king: <a href='http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0367.ht ... s,<br>Jeff Sauter  </td></tr></table><br>Yes, its key, reading one website with some sketchy information means you should take what it says as gospel. </td></tr></table><br>I send a quick reply with a site reference for those interested in further reading, and I get a "Rupp"ish response from someone who won't sign their name to their post (sigh)<br><br>Following is an experiment of one using specificity of training:<br>In the summer of 1999, ultra-marathon running legend, adventure racer and summiteer of Mt Everest - Marshal Ulrich, crossed Death Valley pulling a 200 lb cart full of water and supplies, 135 miles from Badwater to Mt Whitney, solo and unaided. Afterwards, he said it was the hardest athletic achievment he had ever done.<br><br>In 2004, an ordinary guy of modest athletic ability, decided to try and repeat Ulrich's feat. Most experienced ultra runners told him it was impossible, and it was doubtful he would make it more than 50 miles at best in the 130 degree desert heat. However, after reading all available research he could find, a <span style='color:red'>specificity in training plan </span>was devised to overcome where Ulrich nearly failed in his crossing: the first of three long climbs beginning at mile 50 - pulling the still heavily loaded cart up 5000' over the pass.<br><br>A treadmill was set up at the same incline as the Death Valley climb. The room it was in was heated to 120+ degrees. A waist belt was fashioned attaching said belt with bungee cords to the wall behind to simulate pulling the cart; the tension measured with a scale to match the tension of pulling a loaded cart on a comparable incline. A heater and fan were set to blow 130-140F heat into the face and chest, to simulate winds of Death Valley. The same clothing was worn that would be worn, and the same foods/fluids taken in during the months of this specific training, then hundreds of miles were logged at the exact pace anticipated for the climb.<br><br>To make a long story short, after a 16 hour march in 130F to reach that first hill, he powered up and over the pass with a heavier cart than Ulrich used, going on to complete the 135 mile course. He credits success <span style='color:red'>entirely to specificity in training</span>. <br><br>So yes, I'll take it as gospel. <br><br>Cheers,<br>Jeff Sauter<br><br><br>

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 28th, 2004, 5:34 pm

Sure specificity is important. What else is there?<br><br>Note this applies concisely to <b>stroke rates</b>, rhythm and timing etc.<br><br>The title of the article makes a good point as well: <br><br>"they might be <b>better off pushing on their oars</b> instead of using weight machines or free weights."<br><br>Aha!<br><br>Credence that the long neglected recovery is the most important part of the stroke.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » December 28th, 2004, 9:13 pm

There are as many articles and papers written about the pros as there are written about the cons of resistance training for sports. No one seems to be able to really prove the it firmly either way. I happen to believe that resistance training, with the proper protocol is of tremendous value. It doesn't mean that I'm right and it doesn't mean that I'm wrong. <br><br>I do not believe that resistance training could ever take the place of practicing the actual sport itself. But it does have it's value. Ask yourself this-----When a person with no resistance training has reached the highest level of performance, in his sport, what does he do to raise the bar higher? <br><br>As I see it, most people, knowlegable people, believe that traditional resistance training is the way to go. They may have experienced assorted traditional protocols while participating in their choice of sport. It may have worked for them at the time, but will it work for others? Each person has to make a decision as to what works and doesn't work for them. Unfortunately, a large percentage of the people that are writing these articles and papers that we all read have never picked up a single plate or stretched a resistance band. Yet we all read and, in many cases, believe what has been written. <br><br>For you tough guys out there that believe that heavy duty weight training is the only way to go to raise your rowing performance, I for one, will tell you that you are nuts. And for those of you that believe that there isn't a place for resistance training to assist you in reaching your rowing goals, perhaps you should look further into what is available to you.<br><br>Just an opinion, no yelling.<br><br>Yoda<br><br><br><br>