Problems with rowing and can't pinpoint the cause yet...

[rhr]

Some sound advice in the above replies.

Rowing at high drag factors typically results in the overuse of the arms during the drive. In order to move the flywheel people often start pulling with their arms at the same time as they begin their leg drive (aka "the gym stroke"!). This technique will result in you landing on your backside off the back of the C2 when rowing strapless. The arms need to "hang" on the handle at the start of the drive while the legs do all the work, as the legs become fully extended then the back is engaged and finally the arms are whipped in to the top of the abs. Watch some youtube videos on technique and see this in action. Push off using the balls of your feet.

Powerlifters are usually very good at the sprint distances - my guess is you will improve dramatically with better technique. 500m sprints have very little to do with aerobic fitness and everything to do with strength.

[Shrogran]

Bos S.:
The story behind my DF is that i went by feel. What damper and stroke rate gives me the best feel for a workout on the C2. I ended up where i am now. I need to feel some resistance to make things work. When i deadlift, my form improves as i pull more weight. I need that resistance to make me work.
But i understand how this can lead to my current problems!

Edward4492:
Good to hear my 'new phase' isnt unique. And you are right. In weightlifting you also go from plateau to plateau. You need to perfect to improve.

So, thanks to everyone for all the insights and critique. I dont feel offended by any of it, just more determined to improve.
If i try to distill all i have learned now i can come up with this resume. You can all correct me if i am wrong ofcourse.

- less pressure on myself to keep improving all the time. i AM guilty of having that competitive streak of always wanting more and better. for now, row and enjoy.
- my breathing is not as outlandish as i thought. VERY happy about this, as working on it took me backwards and made things worse.
- there must be a form problem somewhere.

I conclude that my current form and technique have been sufficient to take me where i am now, but if i want to improve more, i must find the weak links there. like in weightlifting. Break a PR, train, tweak, improve form, better PR next time.
My high DF is an indication somehow that in my form something is not efficient. At lower damper i am not good. So there must be a weak link in form.

I am pretty certain right now i have been focussing on breathing while the main problem is my drive. As a powerlifter, i am back dominant, not leg dominant. So i rely on my back a lot. In hindsight, i can see myself pulling backwards in sprints, taking the load off my legs. Hindsight is easy, but there you go.

Plan for next couple of weeks:
- focus on finishing rows, taking the frustration out of the factor. Focus the competitive streak on number of rows finished, not pr's broken. Fun should return
- strapless rows: i will probably fail at that with my current knowledge and form. do it and make that work.
- rows with low drag low stroke rate. same as above. i will probably find out some inefficiency there due to lack of legdrive. keep at it and make it work.

I have my homework for the next couple of weeks.
Thanks everyone for sharing the knowledge. I will update in the coming days / weeks as i find out things. Should start soon with the updates as i am very curious about strapless and lowdraglowstroke and how i do on that. Those two will be performed today.

Happy rowing everyone!

[Citroen]

I conclude that my current form and technique have been sufficient to take me where i am now, but if i want to improve more ...

If/when you're feeling brave set-up a camera square on to the ergo (so we can see the whole travel of the handle from front stops to back stops). Row for a couple of minutes with the camera running. Post the video (public with worldwide access) on YouTube. Post the YouTube URL on here.

Sit back and wait for the experts to tell you what parts of your stroke need improvement.

[Shrogran]

I would have no problem in doing that; I have offered making the video in the original post. For now, the experts have indicated that it is not necessary and that my numbers already indicate something wrong.

I will work on strapless and lowrate low stroke today to see if i can pinpoint something (i suspect i need a nice cushion behind the C2 for the strapless) and post my findings.

But i still might put up a video in the coming days anyway. I am not shy about it. I've been on the stage with weights on my back judged by referees, trainers and supporters =) I know video can help a lot IF the video is shot at the right angles.

Thanks for the tip; dont be surprised if a video pops up one of these days.

[Shrogran]

First testresults. Very preliminary ofcourse, but results nonetheless.

Strapless rowing, 2K; watching the Zac Purchase video while rowing; damper at 4 instead of my regular 8
Surprisingly; i did NOT fall off the rower at all. It felt very strange tho. I tried a few different things (higher stroke rate, lower stroke rate, more legpower, less legpower) during the 2K and the main conclusions i can draw are:
- i do not fall backwards. i DO lose contact with the footrest a few times (around 25% of the time); rowing slower it happens a LOT more, rowing faster i seem to stay on the footrests pretty well
- when i use my back as a kind of anchorpoint while ending the drive i stay on the footrests perfectly. I have to force that tho. Normally i tend to swing through with my back and then i lose contact. When i keep my back a rigid point it does not happen and rowing felt more smoothly.
- not sure how much the times and watts will tell you as i varied a lot of things over the distance (testing the waters) but on average 2:08.8 per 500m / average of 163 watts / 25 strokes. the last 200 meters should be the best benchmark for how it went, cause there i rowed according to how it felt best and how i stayed best on the footrests: 1:58.5 per 500m / 210 watts / 25 strokes.
- i totally forgot to check DF on this test.

Slow rate low drag; damper at 4 instead of my regular 8; 1K to give it a try
This was hard. I have a hard time rowing just 20 strokes. I keep creeping back to the 24 strokes if i do not pay attention to it. Main conclusions:
- a BIG increase in my average DPS. Normally i am around 9. In this 1K my shortest as 10.9 and the highest 12.4
- the first 100 meter sucked but the rest was pretty smooth. I varied quit a bit in speed as i struggled to keep the 20 (i only succeeded in that in the first 100 meters). But the rest is all around 23 strokes / 230 watts / 1:57.8 per 500 m. The last 200 meters i could increase easily to 1:52.5 per 500m / 248 watts / 24 strokes.
- DF was around 114

On average i felt pretty good about this.
- Not falling backwards.
- I do lose contact when i dont focus on technique and on slower rowes. Point of attention.
- big increase in DPS when doing low drag slow rate
- i have a really hard time going lower in stroke rate. as soon as i hit 20 the next i am up again to 24. Point of attention
- i definetely used my legs better in the slow drag low rate. i felt less hurried so there was more time to focus
- cant say this was easy at all, so my stamina must still be far below par. i have felt less tired after doing 10k the old fashioned way then the 1k just half an hour ago.
- i sure need to keep more relaxed during the recovery. i could feel myself tense up approaching the catch and keeping things slow so i would stay below 24 strokes. I need to learn how to do that. Point of attention.

If any conclusions come up from the more experienced rowers: i welcome any feedback.

More updates coming soon as i will keep doing this the whole week. I will be less about testing the waters, i did that today. It will be more about finding my right rythm and keeping it.
Thanks to you all and happy rowing!

[dnf0929]

Since we share quite a bit in common (age/size/weightlifting background) I'll share my experience.

Due to chronic low back issues I had to give up almost all weightlifting. Wanted to drop some weight and get in better cardiovascular shape so I gave the C2 a try. Got completely hooked and since starting last September I've logged almost 3 million meters, lost 12kgs and gotten in the best shape of my life.

People have already offered a lot of good advice so I'll simply share what's worked for me.

1. Followed Pete Plan beginner (5 sessions/wk) strictly https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/beginner-training/
2. Moved to regular Pete Plan https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/the-pete-plan/
3. For the endurance rows I do 12-15k - 20-22spm - 70% HRR
4. Regular hard 30r20's http://www.q-power.co/30r20__1_of_3_.html

A few final thoughts:

1. If - like me - you haven't done much cardio work it takes time to both get used to being on the rower for extended periods of time and to build aerobic endurance. When you look at my times endurance is still my relative weakness. Consider splitting up your long rows in to sessions (ie. 3 x 15 minutes with a minute or two break).
2. If you want to see significant improvements you need to spend a lot more time in the saddle. I average about 70k/week.
3. If you've done any Olympic lifting you have explosiveness. You just need to channel it to the rower (proper technique).

Given that the 2k is the standard by which we are judged - my 2k went from 7:32.5 to 6:39.5 in a little over a year.

Good luck!

[Shrogran]

Dnf0929
You logged a lot of km's...and some great results!
I will look into the Pete plans as soon as i have gotten my technique a bit better.

Not sure if i can increase my monthly totals a lot. At least for now. Between work, powerlifting and rebuilding our house not a lot of time is left.

I did olympic weightlifting, but due to lackmof explosiveness, i never really got really good at it. Nonetheless, i enjoyed it immensely and kept doing it regardless.
But you are right about the transfer. I should figure out how to transfer my ability to do compound movements to the C2.

Thanks for sharing your experience and advice.

[Bob S.]

With regard to stroke rate, there is one very easy way to row at low rates - use the timer. For 20spm, this is particularly convenient. For a time set piece, say 30 minutes, the timer reads 30:00 at the start of the first stroke and I start the mental count of 1 - 2 - 3 -1 - 2 - 3 as the timer hits 29:57, 29:54, 29:51, etc. This not only helps to keep a steady rhythm, but helps to focus on getting a hard start on the drive, by sneaking up on it during the 2 and 3 count then sort of pouncing on itat the nex number 1. For a set distance, the time starts with zero, so the counts are at 0:00, 0:03, 0:06, etc. The same system for 12, 15, and 30spm, since those don't involve any fractions of seconds. I also have adapted it to 18, 22, and 24spm with small modifications. For 25-29 and over 30, it is pointless, but, since most of my own work is done at lower rates, this has been a handy tool. I have even rowed a bit at 10spm as an experiment and I regularly use 12 and 15 for warm ups and cool downs, trying to keep at the same work per stroke at all stroke rates.

Letting the rate creep up is the result of being in too much of a hurry to get to the next stroke. Locking your rate to the timer helps to break this habit. Time trials and racing are a different matter, but at this point you are training and learning to control your stoke race (and your pace as well) is an important part of that training.

Bob S.

[Shrogran]

Simple but elegant. Love that tip. So obvious, yet i would have never thought of it.

Tomorrow i row both sets again as a warmup for deadlifts. I also might throw in a short session as a cooldown. I will def try this.

[G-dub]

So if I hear you right Bob (and many others at times), it is better to do an easy row - say 150 watts - at 15 SPM than doing it at 20 SPM to groove a better stroke? Or if I was doing a hard (for me) 5K training row at say 2:00 it's better to do it at 20 SPM than rating up?

[Bob S.]

So if I hear you right Bob (and many others at times), it is better to do an easy row - say 150 watts - at 15 SPM than doing it at 20 SPM to groove a better stroke? Or if I was doing a hard (for me) 5K training row at say 2:00 it's better to do it at 20 SPM than rating up?

No. I did not intend to imply that. I have used rates from 10spm to 60spm, for various purposes, but I try to do the same amount of work per stroke at all rates. Well the 10 and the 60 were extremes that I just did for experimentation and the 60 would not have been possible on a grounded static machine without an extreme shortening of the stroke. I do use 12spm regularly at the start of long warm ups and for relaxed cool downs and as high as 50 for a sprint at the end of short distance time trial. I have the dynamic model, so it is definitely easier to rate up than on a static machine, even on slides. On a grounded static machine, I don't think that I would be getting over 40. With slides it would be a bit higher - 43/44 perhaps. I generally use 15spm for UT2 pieces, 20spm for UT1, 24spm for AT, 30 for TR, and 39-40 for AN.

For just getting into good cardiovascular condition (and staying there), it is mostly UT work, with an occasional AT. In preparation for time trials and/or races, a lot of TR and AN sessions are needed. Even during pre-race periods, most programs, such as the Pete Plan and the UK Interactive Programme (sic), call for a lot of UT sessions. It appears that the designers of those plans regard long, slow pieces as important throughout the season. I firmly believe that those pieces should be done at low rates and strong strokes, rather than high rates with weak strokes.

Bob S.

[Oldibtgdy]

Yes, breathe in on the drive. Exhale at the release. Inhale on the recovery. Exhale from te deepest part of your abdomen you can find (and through that, establish the connection needed for the drive), extend as in placing the oar in the water and repeat. Your LUNGS are tired? Not surprised. They're driven by muscles too. Google "power lung" -- sounds nuts, but it's hard and seems to make the world turn a little faster for me. Besides, my niece and her pals turned me on to the principal -- and they're boxers. Good ones.

[jackarabit]

The explosive snort on release is something i resort to. Sometimes another at the catch. Pushes the bad air (CO2) out. The good stuff seems to rush in on its own but that diaphram is really working both ways. Nothing like a good bellows. Wish I coukd stick with the Powerbreathe daily but conveniently forget. Jack

[Shrogran]

Alright. Felt like doing at least a bit of distance today and made it CLEAR to myself that whatever i was going to do, i was going to put the damper on 4 and stroke rate as low as i can keep it.
I jumped online and was able to join a nice 5k paddle. Didnt have too much of a warmup, but felt good to do it in a group so i had less tendency to quit if i got my head wrong again.

It went better than i expected. I was able to keep rowing pace nicely low. Starting out really slow so feel my body performing i started watching the recommended row video again and went for it.

Last time i rowed a 5k and finished it:
- 20:13.9 / averaging 2:014.4 per 500m / DPS around 9m / stroke rate 27 / DF 165 / damper on 8

This time:
- 20:32.7 / averaging 2:03.3 per 500m / DPS around 11m / stroker rate 22 / DF 115 / damper on 5 (i thought i had put it on 4, but it was 5)

Even tho it is slower, the previous is my PB and i was dead after that one. This session i started really slow (around 2:11 first k), then accelarated a bit more each k, making sure i kept my stroke rate LOW. In the last 500m i just went for it, but still tried to rely on gliding and making long strokes. So instead of a stroke rate of 29 and 1:52.6 in the 500m of my personal best, i now pushed out a 1:49.2 at stroke rate 26.

It might sound stupid, but after the first 1500 meters i fell into a kind of zone? I wasnt really able to focus on the clock as Bob S. recommended, but i started to imagine i was on the water. Recovering slowly imagining the water sliding under me. That really worked well.

Feeling good about this. I will keep working on mastering the stroke and keeping my rows low rate for a while. It really feels awesome when you get into that gliding sensation i had.

[rhr]

Good to see you're enjoying yourself on the pixel river!

One thing you may want to consider. You are comparing your latest row against your previous PB, this is like comparing apples with oranges. Doing a controlled sub maximal row at 22 SPM building your pace from 2:11 upwards is not the same thing as going all out at 27 SPM and being exhausted at the end. A few more rows at low rate building a better stroke (after a proper warm up) will soon see you below 20:00 mins for the 5k. A good target would be to aim for 2:00 / 500m at R20 - looking at your recent improvement it won't take long. The trick then is to increase your stroke rate (whilst maintain the same power per stroke) back up to 27 SPM (or possibly less) and push all out to set a PB.

Hence the reason why people do long steady state - e.g. 30-60 mins at 20 -22 SPM at 2:00 / 500m, then shorter workouts at higher SPM and faster pace. You build the power of your stroke doing longer, slower workouts so when the time comes to have a crack at a 5k TT holding 25-27 SPM at 10 W' per stroke (equivalent to 2:00 / 500m - 20 SPM) for under 20 minutes it won't feel so bad. Well it might! But at least you'll be better prepared.

Bottom line - don't race your training. Train, build the power of your stroke and then TT once a week or every 2 weeks. Once you see progress you inherently begin to get a sense of where you are for a distance and will likely feel less of a need to TT all the time to get confirmation.