Help me go sub-7:00 for the 2k

[hjs]

Re: all the talk about peak power. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just log a ton of meters on the erg and going sub 7:00 shouldn't be out of reach given your stats.

Guys like Eric Murray have (relatively) "weak" low pulls, but can easily beat almost anyone on a 2k, and on longer distances I think is unsurpassed (on the erg). People focus way too much on peak power when in reality the bulk of your speed comes from your aerobic system. Worry about peak power if you're trying to set a 500m world record, not if you're trying to go fast over 2k.

Not true, his sprinttimes are not super, but he has plenty of strenght. And certainly enough peakpower. in that situation strenghtlevel is high Enough.

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

Not true? He admits so himself in interviews. How can you call that not true? Sure, it may be a higher peak power than you or I have, but RELATIVE to his other scores his peak power is pedestrian. The kiwi 2- don't do much lifting at all because they don't need it. They're just aerobic machines. You can say it's not true all you want, but that doesn't change the numbers on their erg screen.

[hjs]

Not true? He admits so himself in interviews. How can you call that not true? Sure, it may be a higher peak power than you or I have, but RELATIVE to his other scores his peak power is pedestrian. The kiwi 2- don't do much lifting at all because they don't need it. They're just aerobic machines. You can say it's not true all you want, but that doesn't change the numbers on their erg screen.

Read..

HE IS STRONG ENOUGH. His lowpull is certainly below 1.20. If you are not strong enough, all the aerobic training in the world will not make you fast. If you bother to read what I did right and not just brows a bit you could see what I ment.

The relation between 500 and 2k is poor. For 2k training your aerobic system is by far the most important, but you need a certain min. Amount of power. A guy with a 1.35 lowpull will never pull 7.00.
Murrey will does not have a 1.20 lowpull, to pull his low 5.40 ies.

[LarryRow]

I'm not exactly sure how one breaks down from over training on the erg. Can someone enlighten me? Would it be back problems? Knee problems? What happens when you train too hard?

You can over-train in any and all sports. Your times stop improving and eventually get worse, even for low-intensity practice sessions, your HR is elevated, you don't recover between workouts, your body aches, you get irritable, you get insomnia, etc. Over-training is not a running-only phenomenon.

Oh, I know this well! I never meant to imply that over training was a running only phenomenon. Thanks for all the tips on where I'll start feeling the effects of over training on the erg.

I have experienced the death spiral of over training when I went through my disastrous marathon training program. I kept doing hard workouts without being fully recovered until, fifteen weeks later, I ran my fastest mile ever, and, four days later, wound up confined to a boot for six weeks.

What kind of low pull do you think I need to hit to go sub-7? 1:27? No, I'm not trying for that next week.

Eric Murray is some kind of monster to be able to row the way he does. His max heart rate is over 200, while mine is probably 172. I watched the video where he kept his heart rate at 190 for an hour, a truly amazing performance.

[gregsmith01748]

Regarding peak power. I tend to agree with Armando. The biggest thing is building a strong aerobic base. The next is developing an ability to work above your lactate threshold. The final bit is enhancing peak power. Take a look at this article:

https://peakcentre.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... rformance/

Right up front, the author (who by the way was the strength coach for the canadian olympic rowing team) states:

We all have been told that rowing is 80% aerobic and 20% anaerobic which is why the majority of training time is spent doing aerobic training. Because everyone realizes the importance of aerobic fitness in rowing the aerobic system is generally quite well trained in competitive rowers. As the level of competition increases the difference in aerobic fitness between competitors gets smaller and smaller. At the international level the difference in aerobic fitness between first and last place crews is often less than the error in the machines used to measure aerobic fitness.

Because aerobic fitness is very similar amongst crews of similar competitive level there must be something else that gives a crew an edge. Outside of technique the one physical factor that is emerging as being the best predictor of rowing performance is peak power. There have been several studies in the past few years that have shown peak power is more strongly correlated to rowing performance than VO2 max or anaerobic threshold.

So, your highest priority should be to work on the thing that gets you 80% of the way there. If you are curious, you can read through that article and try out the Peak Power Test. It will give you an idea of where you stand, and a easy training method to improve it on the erg. One thing about peak power gains is that they come quickly, and you reach a plateau pretty fast, so it's best to work on it in the period about 6 weeks before your 2K time trial.

By the way, I think you could ultimately go sub-6:30. It will take more than 3 sessions and 40km a week though. More like 80 to 90K and 6 or more sessions. It might work to do steady state aerobic work by running, biking or swimming. In that case, you could do 40K and 3 sessions of hard stuff on the erg and make real progress.

[hjs]

Where this talk about peakpower comes from

Its not peakpower, but overall power. 135 lowpull is plenty for a 8 min rower. My point is, 8 min for a man 6.2 is simply not strong very strong. 7 min would be around 50% more power. Not peakpower should be trained but overall strenghtendurance, like I said before.
That said, I don,t think the 8 min is currently your max, to be sure do a test, if you really pull 8,00 right now, after already having trained, I don,t think sub 7 is realistic. At your age you can improve a min, but for that you need to be very unfit at this stage. If you already are beyond the stage of very unfit improvements comes slower. Not everybody can pull sub 7.
To me, right now, you seem to be, relative speaking not very strong. Working on that will yield the best result right now.
With 1.35 a 1.45 2k is impossible, nomatter how fit you would become.

[lindsayh]

To me, right now, you seem to be, relative speaking not very strong. Working on that will yield the best result right now.
With 1.35 a 1.45 2k is impossible, no matter how fit you would become.

I agree - the strength thing is the limiting factor at the moment - LP should be well under 1:30 and can be relatively easily improved with appropriate training.

[LarryRow]

Greg,
Thanks for that article! I will start working on the peak power tests and see how much I can improve my power.

I readily admit to being a weak rower. I've only got 533,000 meters racked up, and have only been training with a coach for a couple of months.

I'm encouraged that so many of you think that I can do better than 7 minutes. I agree with the article when it states:

"There have been several studies in the past few years that have shown peak power is more strongly correlated to rowing performance than VO2 max or anaerobic threshold."

I think VO2 max is more strongly correlated with running performance than rowing performance. Anecdotally, I know a couple of extremely fit runners who have jumped on the erg and their initial times were not that impressive. To me, that indicates that they do not have the power to be good rowers, even if their aerobic capacity is high.

[Pie Man]

In fact if your target pace is more than 55% of your peak power you are going to have a very difficult time holding that pace.

from the article Greg linked to caught my eye, as it pretty much fits in with my numbers. Working back from that to pull a sub 7:00 your peak power would be 550w or 1:26/500m. Which roughly fits in with what Henry was saying about 2k -16/18

[jackarabit]

Asking for predictions is kind of a downer, huh Larry? Talk to the Chris dude about a plan. Think about the price you'll pay in time and effort whether or not you eventually manage sub-7 2k. It's up to you; it's only a number. The journey is the destination.

[mdpfirrman]

Just an observation from me about power / aerobic. The people that typically say it's more about aerobic are taller and have more body mass naturally. Those of us, like me, that are vertically challenged (I'm 5' 10") with shorter limbs typically feel it's also about power / strength. You're going to have to overcome height / weight disadvantages with power, it's that simple. The good news is for a taller rower, it's easier to put on muscle, weight and strength to be more than adequate for lower times.

@ Jack - good point about the destination!

@ PieMan - that peak power number you put (550W) gives me hope! I hadn't looked at the Peak Power article in a while (though I do it on occasion). That's right about where I am currently on my peak power (after some training on it).

[Bloodbuzz Corio]

Thanks for that link Greg.

I did try that peak power test (and workout) in May - and the peak power I saw there was 483 Watts - so my current 2k PB (7:10.7 - 280.2 Watts) is 58% of that peak power - seems like I may need to get my strength up a bit to take off that last 10.7 seconds...

[G-dub]

While I want to believe more power will get me there, I think a cold reality is that those of us shorter guys need to be more fit to be able to hold higher ratings to compensate too it seems to me. Power only gets you out of the blocks fast. It's the holding it that is the key.

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

Here is a great interview with none other than Eric Murray himself, where he openly talks about his RELATIVELY weak peak power, but how his aerobic base is so good that it doesn't really matter.

http://www.worldrowing.com/news/eric-mu ... oor-rowing

Of note,

MC: So I guess knowing your own physiology is key?
EM: Yeah, physiology-wise, I’m definitely not strong on speed over short distance. Most of the guys in the men’s eight would eat me for breakfast over 250m - that’s where outright power comes in. But I’ve got 12 to 14 years experience. That includes thousands of kilometres a year at a pretty decent intensity on the erg and the knowledge behind that intensity. That means trying to hit 80 per cent in my UT2 zone, at around a heart rate of 160-165. Then I’m looking at 1.44s on the machine. It comes down to years of grind to enable me to hit those numbers.

[hjs]

Here is a great interview with none other than Eric Murray himself, where he openly talks about his RELATIVELY weak peak power, but how his aerobic base is so good that it doesn't really matter.

http://www.worldrowing.com/news/eric-mu ... oor-rowing

Of note,

MC: So I guess knowing your own physiology is key?
EM: Yeah, physiology-wise, I’m definitely not strong on speed over short distance. Most of the guys in the men’s eight would eat me for breakfast over 250m - that’s where outright power comes in. But I’ve got 12 to 14 years experience. That includes thousands of kilometres a year at a pretty decent intensity on the erg and the knowledge behind that intensity. That means trying to hit 80 per cent in my UT2 zone, at around a heart rate of 160-165. Then I’m looking at 1.44s on the machine. It comes down to years of grind to enable me to hit those numbers.

I have read this, like I said, 500 and below does not correlate well to 2k, but stil he may be relative weak, absolute seen he is strong enough.
And before being well trained starting peakpower is a very good tool to spot talent. The correlation is pretty high. If you have a good base peak power, a high % of slow fiber muscle and put in the long easy meters you get a Murray.

5.41 ? And top otw rowers do not pull there best erg times in top condition, that form is reached on the otw season.