Rant over used C2 pricing.

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mwalsh
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Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by mwalsh » March 6th, 2016, 7:46 pm

So as you might already be aware, my budget wouldn't stretch to a brand new C2 erg (I wish it did!), and I'd been looking to the pre-owned market in hopes of finding something of a bargain. Well I must say that until I found my Model C I was starting to get quite dismayed (and a little bit annoyed) over the asking prices for some used C2 ergs, even knowing that it's a sellers market where demand sometimes outstrips supply.

When I see $700 asked for a Model C with a PM2 monitor? Really? $500 for a Model B? Laughable! More than the $950 (with shipping) you'd pay when ordering a brand new Model D from C2? Why would anyone ever consider that?

So here is a breakdown of what I think is reasonable for each C2 erg going back to the year dot. You tell me if you think I'm out of line:

Current Model D with PM5 or PM4 - $700-800, and for $800 it better be a nearly new Model D that someone has had for just a few months and realized they didn't like using it. At the lower end it'd better have a PM4 at least. Over $800 and I'm personally buying brand new from C2.

Earlier Model D with PM3 or PM4 - $500-700. Higher end would need to be one with very low meters and otherwise in top condition.

Model C - $300-$500. Higher end would need to already have a PM retrofit (PM3 minimum) and be in very good condition. Lower end and the PM2 would need to be fully functional. Bad PM2 and I'd be wanting to pay less than $300.

Model B - Under $300, perhaps well under if the PM2 no longer worked.

Model A - Nominal cost for being a curiosity/collectible. Probably under $100. Maybe even "Free to a Good Home".

And don't even get me started on the pricing for used PM2 and PM3 monitors! :shock:
Age: 54 Weight: 91.5kg/202lbs Height: 174cm/5' 8.5" Fitness level: jog 5 miles daily and swim 30 minutes almost daily; I'd say fit but with a persistent beer gut.

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JRBJR
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by JRBJR » March 6th, 2016, 11:07 pm

I can understand your frustration if 20 year old Model Cs with PM2s are selling used for $700 and 30 year old Model Bs for $500. But Concept2 has a well-earned reputation for building commercial, even industrial-strength, ergs that last for decades if properly serviced and updated with a few parts every so often. So it's not like they're cars that depreciate 25 percent in value as soon as you drive them off the dealer's lot.

If I wanted to get a Concept2 erg for my own use, I'd save until I could afford a new Model D or Dynamic and order it from Concept2. I would not take my chances with a used D or older model selling on Craigslist or some other channel. To save a few hundred dollors, you run the risk of buying a badly-maintained and even abused erg from someone who nonetheless claims with a straight face that it's in mint condition (for example, a damaged flywheel unit). But that's just me. A lot of people don't want to pay full price for a brand new erg and are willing to take the risk of buying a used one. In the grand scheme of things, almost any poorly maintained erg can be fixed and made almost like new with a few spare parts from C2 and a few hours of elbow grease on your part. You can't say that about most 5, 10, or 20 year old fitness equipment, that's for sure. And that's why the second-hand market in Concept2 ergs supports these amazingly high resale prices. It's a sellers' market.

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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by Edward4492 » March 6th, 2016, 11:33 pm

JRBJR.....you nailed it! There's only one reason for high prices, the market is there to support it. In my area "C"s for $500 or less are snapped up instantly. All of my customers, mostly crossfit boxes have standing orders to buy "C"s and "D"s when the price is under $500 with a functioning monitor. Drop the $900 (or buy a new one for $800 at a satellite regatta) and be done with it. Best investment you'll ever make. And if you get tired of it you'll be on the right end of the high re-sale price market.

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Carl Watts
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by Carl Watts » March 7th, 2016, 1:20 am

No point getting upset about used Erg pricing, it is what it is pay or buy a new one.

Basically it comes down to a number of problems, there is always about 14 to 22 people on the watch list for anything that comes up for sale over here.

1. There is now a huge market that didn't exist year ago for kids at schools in the high school rowing teams who's rich parents buy them an Erg to train on.

2. Confusion over the Model D1 and the Model D2, Concept 2 should have called it a new model post 2008 when it had the new monitor and improvements. People see its a "D" and it can be really old, like 2003 and you save a few hundred bucks over a new one.

I opted to just get a brand new one. if you know all about them and all the improvements in the latest version, you just buy new. If you add in the delivery, which is always cheaper from the distributor than it is from a private individual it becomes an even easier decision.
Carl Watts.
Age:55 Weight: 108kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
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bisqeet
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by bisqeet » March 7th, 2016, 3:45 am

+1
There is nearly no depreciation on the c2.
Put it down to durability of the machines.

I was looking for one for a while and was very frustrated with the pricing, as you wrote sometimes even the along price was more economically than buying a new one. In the end that's what I did.
Bought one from amazon
They had a deal (or an error) on the black model. It being 100€ cheapie cheaper than the grey. Pm5 is great and I haven't been disappointed.
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hjs
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by hjs » March 7th, 2016, 4:35 am

Pretty funny :D Complaining about a price, "yes I know you can get that amount for that item, but I find that price to high to gimmi it for less" :P

On the other hand, the new c2 s are relative very cheap. And the fact it keeps its value very well is only a good thing for owners.

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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by markinnb » March 7th, 2016, 8:27 am

The potential buyer TELLING the seller the price that should be set for the item ( low supply and high demand ) .
that's rich.
it might work. I look forward to that thread
"It's hard enough as it is without doing it all wrong."

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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by mwalsh » March 7th, 2016, 8:46 am

Brand new C2s ARE an extraordinary value priced the way they are. So unless you were on anything but the tightest budget why on earth would you even consider used over new? Especially when the price is just a couple of hundred bucks behind the price of a new one (and in the fantasy world of some sellers the same price or MORE than a new one!)

And if folks really were thinking "Well, I'll just buy new" that should mean lower demand for and suppressed resale prices on used ones, right? The only time we should really be seeing high resale prices is with a constrained supply of the new commodity, and so far as I know C2 is capable of shipping as many as folks want. True?

It's the same way with the used PM pricing. I don't really understand $150 for a PM3 when a brand new PM5 is $180. The only way I could see this is when a feature set folks really liked in the older model is discontinued with the new one, but even that would only be a small subset of users. Most would gleefully adopt the new technology.

Please, tell me what I'm missing! The only thing I can come up with is that many buyers are just clueless as to what these things cost new.
Age: 54 Weight: 91.5kg/202lbs Height: 174cm/5' 8.5" Fitness level: jog 5 miles daily and swim 30 minutes almost daily; I'd say fit but with a persistent beer gut.

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markinnb
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by markinnb » March 7th, 2016, 9:09 am

mwalsh wrote:Brand new C2s ARE an extraordinary value priced the way they are. So unless you were on anything but the tightest budget why on earth would you even consider used over new? Especially when the price is just a couple of hundred bucks behind the price of a new one (and in the fantasy world of some sellers the same price or MORE than a new one!)
And if folks really were thinking "Well, I'll just buy new" that should mean lower demand for and suppressed resale prices on used ones, right? The only time we should really be seeing high resale prices is with a constrained supply of the new commodity, and so far as I know C2 is capable of shipping as many as folks want. True?
It's the same way with the used PM pricing. I don't really understand $150 for a PM3 when a brand new PM5 is $180. The only way I could see this is when a feature set folks really liked in the older model is discontinued with the new one, but even that would only be a small subset of users. Most would gleefully adopt the new technology.
Please, tell me what I'm missing! The only thing I can come up with is that many buyers are just clueless as to what these things cost new.
In your opinion is everything too expensive ? or is it just used C2 ergs?
from your opening post: how is it that some of us may know that you are a skinflint.?
"It's hard enough as it is without doing it all wrong."

mwalsh
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by mwalsh » March 7th, 2016, 11:28 am

markinnb wrote:In your opinion is everything too expensive ? or is it just used C2 ergs?
from your opening post: how is it that some of us may know that you are a skinflint.?
It depends. Some things are priced right; some things are overpriced (IMO); some things are undervalued - the value of my car, for example, has dropped like a stone since I bought it 5 years ago (worth only 25% of it's price new).

I'm not a skinflint, just going through an extraordinarily difficult time financially right now. If my circumstances had been what they normally are, I would have had no hesitation in buying new.

Actually, that's only partially true - I might have been a bit hesitant until I'd found out if erging was really for me. The only erg I'd been on prior to getting my C was the broke down D at my gym, and that has hardly been an inspiring experience (although I grabbed the tech while he was there on Friday and asked him directly if he had a repair order for it). But now I've got my C at home and really like it I have a sneaking suspicion that if/when I come to upgrade it'll be to a brand new C2, probably a Model E with its slightly higher stance (for my DW's sake).
Age: 54 Weight: 91.5kg/202lbs Height: 174cm/5' 8.5" Fitness level: jog 5 miles daily and swim 30 minutes almost daily; I'd say fit but with a persistent beer gut.

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JRBJR
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by JRBJR » March 7th, 2016, 11:48 am

It depends. Some things are priced right; some things are overpriced (IMO); some things are undervalued - the value of my car, for example, has dropped like a stone since I bought it 5 years ago (worth only 25% of it's price new).

I'm not a skinflint, just going through an extraordinarily difficult time financially right now. If my circumstances had been what they normally are, I would have had no hesitation in buying new.

Actually, that's only partially true - I might have been a bit hesitant until I'd found out if erging was really for me. The only erg I'd been on prior to getting my C was the broke down D at my gym, and that has hardly been an inspiring experience (although I grabbed the tech while he was there on Friday and asked him directly if he had a repair order for it). But now I've got my C at home and really like it I have a sneaking suspicion that if/when I come to upgrade it'll be to a brand new C2, probably a Model E with its slightly higher stance (for my DW's sake).
Sounds like you really need some time on a well-maintained gym or hotel Concept2 erg. That way you can make certain you really want one and give you some time to save up for a new one from Cpncept2. We've all see the badly-maintained gym ergs with the crud-encrusted rollers and monorails and non-functioning dust/bacteria-clogged flywheels. That's like taking a test drive in a car with no tire pressure, lost primer coat, junk in the passemger compartment, and missing half of its spark plugs. The Concept2 website provides a search engine that allows you to input your zip code and locate all of the various models of their ergs that are within varying distances of your house. Use that tool to locate an erg that is being properly maintained and serviced, use it to your heart's content, and base your buying decision on that experience.

markinnb
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by markinnb » March 7th, 2016, 12:16 pm

mwalsh wrote:
markinnb wrote:In your opinion is everything too expensive ? or is it just used C2 ergs?
from your opening post: how is it that some of us may know that you are a skinflint.?
It depends. Some things are priced right; some things are overpriced (IMO); some things are undervalued - the value of my car, for example, has dropped like a stone since I bought it 5 years ago (worth only 25% of it's price new).

I'm not a skinflint, just going through an extraordinarily difficult time financially right now. If my circumstances had been what they normally are, I would have had no hesitation in buying new.

Actually, that's only partially true - I might have been a bit hesitant until I'd found out if erging was really for me. The only erg I'd been on prior to getting my C was the broke down D at my gym, and that has hardly been an inspiring experience (although I grabbed the tech while he was there on Friday and asked him directly if he had a repair order for it). But now I've got my C at home and really like it I have a sneaking suspicion that if/when I come to upgrade it'll be to a brand new C2, probably a Model E with its slightly higher stance (for my DW's sake).
with this answer, you have just rendered your original question as being pointless. you understand things well enough to have figured it out on your own.

When people are buying, many tend to moan at the alleged high prices and begrudge the sellers any right to make a profit. the buyers tend to want to determine what is fair and what is not fair. to the buyer- a low to zero profit is fair. lol.
when that buyer turns around to become a seller- then their thoughts on the matter often changes. they suddenly value THEIR possessions at a much higher $ amount that what others may find reasonable. or what the market valuation of the item happens to be.

A person can take great care of their car and do all the right things but it depreciates the moment it is taken off the floor/ out the driveway.
Some cars depreciate less than others. perhaps a BMW depreciates less than a Ford. both cars go from A to B.
if a person wants to buy a car that is known to depreciate less, then they can't compare that car price to one that depreciates a lot.
not saying that you did this but many people do such things: make wrong comparisons that always appear to be in their favor.
that said, your comment on YOUR OWN car has it that the market value of it is too low as you use it as an example of an item that , in your opinion, is undervalued.
if you were buying a used car of similar make & year & condition- you wouldn't want to buy any more than market value.
So you see the trouble with how you are viewing things: if it is yours, then it's worth more than what others value it. if it's someone else's and you want it, it's worth less.

There's always one or two people who sell things for next to nothing , even paying shipping on the item , which then incurs a loss- purely due to the fact that they don't think that it's fair to make money . that is their choice.
Bliss is when the moaning buyers meet up with these generous sellers.

not all C2 ergs of the same age will be priced at the same 'used price ". you have to consider a number of things. the meterage on it, the type and usage it got- maybe there is a difference in a c2 from a crossfit box, or cbx having high level competitors as opposed to a gym catering to those who do lighter less intense workouts.

C2 ergs tend to hold their value since so few fall apart. ( not the only reason for their holding value -)
They do break down and things must be replaced but it is a rare thing that the breakdowns be catastrophic.
There are c2 techs on here who have commented on such things.
"It's hard enough as it is without doing it all wrong."

mwalsh
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by mwalsh » March 7th, 2016, 12:42 pm

^ You don't realize that I'm quite resigned to the depreciation on my car being what it is. It's dissapointing, sure, but it's a fact of life. As to making the mistake of buying a car with a massive amount of deprecation in the first place...it was a brand new model from this manufacturer, so there was no deprecation data for it.

So in summary: I'm the one with the problem; used C2 prices are just fine. Got it.

I'll be sure to remember that when It comes time to sell my Model C. $700? Oh, hell yes! :D
Age: 54 Weight: 91.5kg/202lbs Height: 174cm/5' 8.5" Fitness level: jog 5 miles daily and swim 30 minutes almost daily; I'd say fit but with a persistent beer gut.

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markinnb
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by markinnb » March 7th, 2016, 1:11 pm

mwalsh wrote:^ You don't realize that I'm quite resigned to the depreciation on my car being what it is.
it's irrelevant.
It's dissapointing, sure, but it's a fact of life.
then you understand the difference between what we want and what we get.
As to making the mistake of buying a car with a massive amount of deprecation in the first place...it was a brand new model from this manufacturer, so there was no deprecation data for it.
...
So in summary: I'm the one with the problem; used C2 prices are just fine. Got it.
yes, you pretended to not know how business transactions work.
secondly, market conditions may change and then other things will change accordingly
I'll be sure to remember that when It comes time to sell my Model C. $700? Oh, hell yes! :D
charge what you want for your model C. What a person WANTS for the item, may differ substantially from what they are offered and what they finally agree to accept.
one guy on here sold a monitor (?) for even less than market and possibly less than what the buyer would have paid. The Seller valued it less due to his perception that the newer model monitor was better. But the buyer wanted it for the rowing machine that he had. The seller actually covered the cost of shipping. that transaction may have ended up costing the guy money. he wasn't bothered by this at all. I think that he wrote that he was happy to do it.
you should have met up with him.
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Re: Rant over used C2 pricing.

Post by EAB1 » March 7th, 2016, 10:05 pm

Interesting discussion! My Model B cost me nearly $1400 in today's dollars when you account for inflation over the price I paid in 1987. It's still going strong and doing exactly what it did in the late '80s with just a bit of maintenance/replacement parts (skewers, cords, rollers), and occasional presents to help fend off the periodic urge to get a new erg even though it worked just fine (replaced the PM1 with a PM2 and then a PM3; flexfoot, new handle). Even accounting for all the upgrades it's been a great value at about a dollar a week over its lifespan.

About 3 years ago the urge to upgrade finally peaked, I set out to get a new erg, and I too was a bit dismayed by the challenge of finding a used D at a reasonable price. In the end I worked the 'value' math again in my head and figured that the difference between used and new would end up being pennies a week over its life. I also took solace in the fact that my new black Model D was going to be actually cheaper to buy than my B was way back when.

And, even though the Model B now has a younger brother, it's still not for sale, which doesn't help the supply problem on the used market.

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