Watts on Erg Vs. Bike

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
mdpfirrman1
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Re: Watts on Erg Vs. Bike

Post by mdpfirrman1 » January 20th, 2020, 1:39 pm

MartinSH4321 wrote:
January 19th, 2020, 5:37 am
Here's a link regarding rowing efficiency (it's german, but the summary is also in english):
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 0301-0_127
The conclusion: biking has a much better efficiency factor than rowing, 0,23 vs. 0,19. Rowing at 190W has the same energy consuption as biking at 230W.
That sounds exactly right to me. I'm not in shape right now after a bad back injury last year, but I can generate around 240 Watts on my AD Pro (Assault Bike) for an hour. Sounds pretty good until say that I can't average under 2:00 for an hour on the rower (best is around 185 Watts or so). The AD Pro is considered a "Class A" Watts device, meaning it's within + or - 1 percent accuracy. The C2 rower is also very accurate. I know some folks that can hold 300 Watts on the bike for an hour and they are like 6:40 2K rowers.
Mike, Age 55, 195 lbs (currently, a bit pudgy after The Holidays!). 5' 10"

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left coaster
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Re: Watts on Erg Vs. Bike

Post by left coaster » January 20th, 2020, 1:47 pm

I'm still curious about the max low pull watts (most powerful single stroke after ramping it up) on the rower compared to the highest short term spike in watts I can get on the smarttrainer. I expect the bike will still be higher, especially with the very high cadence that can be generated. My smart trainer is apparently also accurate within 1%, not that it matters for a slouch like me.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015

left coaster
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Re: Watts on Erg Vs. Bike

Post by left coaster » January 28th, 2020, 7:17 pm

Carl Watts wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 10:41 pm

Really hope that 2020 is the year that Zwift get a decent Erg power conversion to actual road speed on a bike.
How about something far more radical!?

After riding on my new Tacx Neo 2t smart trainer it is abundantly clear that resistance technology has advanced rapidly. I'm guessing it's possible to program the type of electric motor on this trainer to mimic the resistance of rowing in a boat... there is no flywheel on this machine, just a magnetic motor.It's basically a reverse motor that puts up resistance with programmed, second to second changes to resistance, rather than generating power. For example, in 'erg mode' it puts up the same resistance regardless of your cadence (basically like an automatic transmission on your bike that changes the gears for you), or you can go old school and use virtual slopes which are just periods of increased resistance you change gears to manage.

The other thing that seems weird about the C2 after riding on this thing is that you can't adjust the resistance on the fly with the erg. There are clearly benefits from switching up cadence and resistance in various workout combinations, even better if these are programmed so as to take all the "mind games" out of it. I see no reason why an erg couldn't run the same way. Perhaps a little switch on the handle to toggle between 'gears' i.e. change resistance just like on a bike. Vision this: maintain the exact same cadence, stroke velocity and form and work up and down through levels resistance. Switch a gear and now you need to row 5 spm faster to hold the same power, or in reverse, with massive levels of resistance available (2200 watts....), or all the way to zero. When plugged in, the neo will actually simulate riding downhill.... likely too far towards zero -- exits rower off seat at end of stroke :D

It might be nothing like rowing on the water, and lack all manner of transfer in terms of technique, but I bet it would be possible to improve the athletic performance of rowers beyond what is possible now.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015

Nomath
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Re: Watts on Erg Vs. Bike

Post by Nomath » January 29th, 2020, 7:36 pm

A machine with many variables may serve some whimsical purposes. The beauty of the C2 ergs is that they are consistently set for any competition with your own past or your current competitors, at every place where you find one.
left coaster wrote:
January 28th, 2020, 7:17 pm
The other thing that seems weird about the C2 after riding on this thing is that you can't adjust the resistance on the fly with the erg.
I have no idea what benefit a remote control of the drag factor could have on a row-erg. On a bicycle climbing a slope with varying gradients, you obviously change gears to keep the pedaling cadence optimal for your power output. For a simulated climb on a bike-erg of a famous cycling col, like Galibier or Mont Ventoux, it would be a nice feature.

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(The graph is from the article Cadence, Power, and Muscle Activation in Cycle Ergonometry, by B.R. MacIntosh et al., 1999 ; minimal EMG-RMS is optimal))

nates
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Re: Watts on Erg Vs. Bike

Post by nates » January 29th, 2020, 11:13 pm

I get so frustrated every time I see 0.0 elevation gain in my workouts on Garmin Connect. I've requested the variable resistance feature but I guess I'm just paddling upstream.

left coaster
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Re: Watts on Erg Vs. Bike

Post by left coaster » January 30th, 2020, 1:48 am

I used to have a 'fluid' wheel on trainer for my bike. I equate that experience to cycling on the c2. pedal harder, stroke faster, resistance goes up in what seems like an exponential manner. It was great when I first got it, but trainers evolved for a reason. The experience I have on the new trainer is much more engaging, workouts are programmed and customized to my personal fitness level. In Sufferfest, they use this 4 dimensional power training thing: 5 second, one minute, 5 minute and 20 minute max sustained power which is assessed in a standardized 1 hour workout. It provides a profile of your fitness strengths then sets all of the dozens of workouts (which have sprints, hard steady, endurance etc. sections) to your personal 4 levels of power ability. It's bloody awesome.... and the workouts are brutal, in a good way!

I fully respect the tradition, and ability to hop on and compete on a standardized piece of gear, but these same standardized features could easily be built into a e-motor type trainer. Then, you would have all the other assessment, adjustment and training components to keep you growing and progressing (and less bored!). All customized to your power profile.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015

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