Getting 4x2K down to target pace

[Gerhard]

According to the wolverine plan, target pace for 4x2K (equal rest) should be 1.08 * 2K PB pace. For me that would result in 1:57.2 target pace. Others say it should be done at 5K PB pace, which is 1:56.4.

At the moment I'm not able to do 4 repeats at either target pace. I usually do them just under 2:00 (except on my bad days..)

There are 4 ways to approach this:

1) Start at target pace, but with reduced distance per interval. Increase the distance a bit every week until I can do 2x2K.

2) Reduce the number of intervals to three. Increase to 4 when it gets easy.

3) Do 4x2K at slower pace. Try to speed up each week until target pace is achieved.

4) Who cares about target pace; it's a good workout even at slightly slower pace.

What do you think?

[PaulS]

According to the wolverine plan, target pace for 2x2K (equal rest) should be 1.08 * 2K PB pace. For me that would result in 1:57.2 target pace. Others say it should be done at 5K PB pace, which is 1:56.4.

At the moment I'm not able to do 4 repeats at either target pace. I usually do them just under 2:00 (except on my bad days..)

There are 4 ways to approach this:

1) Start at target pace, but with reduced distance per interval. Increase the distance a bit every week until I can do 2x2K.

2) Reduce the number of intervals to three. Increase to 4 when it gets easy.

3) Do 4x2K at slower pace. Try to speed up each week until target pace is achieved.

4) Who cares about target pace; it's a good workout even at slightly slower pace.

What do you think?

Are you talking 2 x 2k OR 4 x 2k ? (Pace target sounds more like a 4 x 2k) to which my pace target would be 2k + 10 (1:58.55) for you, which is close enough for govt work at this point.

I'm guessing that you can indeed hit the WP target for the first 2 and then it begins to fade, so just stick with that strategy until all 4 can be completed at target. Then it's time for a new 2k PB. (Oh Joy.)

You are right, "it's a good workout even at slightly slower pace."!

[Gerhard]

According to the wolverine plan, target pace for 2x2K (equal rest) should be 1.08 * 2K PB pace. For me that would result in 1:57.2 target pace. Others say it should be done at 5K PB pace, which is 1:56.4.

At the moment I'm not able to do 4 repeats at either target pace. I usually do them just under 2:00 (except on my bad days..)

There are 4 ways to approach this:

1) Start at target pace, but with reduced distance per interval. Increase the distance a bit every week until I can do 2x2K.

2) Reduce the number of intervals to three. Increase to 4 when it gets easy.

3) Do 4x2K at slower pace. Try to speed up each week until target pace is achieved.

4) Who cares about target pace; it's a good workout even at slightly slower pace.

What do you think?

Are you talking 2 x 2k OR 4 x 2k ?

Corrected -> 4x2K

[Mike Caviston]

Questions like that (which I have answered explicitly) are EXACTLY why I wrote this only yesterday:

For anyone new to the Wolverine Plan (or anyone not so new who should have paid more attention the first time), understand the WP was not written for the general public. Don’t expect every aspect to be clearly explained. The best source of supplementary information can be found here:

http://c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4190&start=0

Ignore all the extraneous crap by spammers and trolls. There is plenty of detailed info about the WP, and to this day I still get questions that are clearly answered in these posts. If it seems like too much trouble to do all the reading, then don’t waste your time. You won’t have what it takes to actually follow the plan. But if you do decide to read it, it may change the way you think about training.

The information is there. Just find it.

[Snail Space]

Mike

You have attracted much respect for your training plan, but that respect will be eroded by such ill-tempered and intolerant responses.

I would wager that few people follow the WP, but many will be influenced by it. However, I doubt that more than a handful of individuals with obsessive compulsive tendencies would be prepared to commit its details to memory. I have read all of the plan, and its supporting documents, but still could not answer Gerhard's question without help from others.

Gerhard does not deserve such rude behaviour. Paul answered the query in good faith. You should have either done the same or declined to respond at all.

Cheers
Dave

[kirbyt]

Gerhard, the rest should actually be slightly less than the work time. I use 5 min. rest on the 2k's and 4 min. on the 1500's. I would tend to favour the idea of doing the full 4x at a consistent pace and then just trying to take off a couple of tenths/500m the next time until you meet that 1.08 goal pace. If you have the discipline to not go out too fast on the first one (when you are fresh and could easily do so) you will find them a little easier psychologically. One other little tip FWIW. During the rest phase I really try to relax, kind of envision my heartbeat slowing down and the last 30 seconds I just sit still and take some good deep breaths.

Kirby

[Francois]

According to the wolverine plan, target pace for 4x2K (equal rest) should be 1.08 * 2K PB pace. For me that would result in 1:57.2 target pace. Others say it should be done at 5K PB pace, which is 1:56.4.

At the moment I'm not able to do 4 repeats at either target pace. I usually do them just under 2:00 (except on my bad days..)

There are 4 ways to approach this:

1) Start at target pace, but with reduced distance per interval. Increase the distance a bit every week until I can do 2x2K.

2) Reduce the number of intervals to three. Increase to 4 when it gets easy.

3) Do 4x2K at slower pace. Try to speed up each week until target pace is achieved.

4) Who cares about target pace; it's a good workout even at slightly slower pace.

What do you think?

Do you have any problems with doing the L4 workouts at your 1:48 reference pace, and the L3 workouts at 2K pace * 1.15 (2:05 for you) ?
If so, that would indicate a lack of endurance, and may explain why you have difficulty completing the 4x2K at the target pace.

Also, when doing 4x2K L2 workouts, I take 6:30 min. rest during which I row 1000m; this gives me about 2 min of passive rest for stretching and drinking. Each 2K is negative split, and is slightly faster than the preceding one.

L2 sessions are demanding! You should be well rested before.

Don't be discouraged; the WP is not for the faint hearted, but it pays huge dividends if you persist.

Francois

[Mike Caviston]

You have attracted much respect for your training plan, but that respect will be eroded by such ill-tempered and intolerant responses.

Gosh, I thought I already lost your respect last year when I suggested that Stuart Briscoe might not be all that he claimed and you thought that was ungentlemanly of me. How did he end up doing at BIRC last year, by the way? I certainly wasn’t trying to be rude to Gerhard, and from my perspective I was not being ill-tempered or intolerant. But I don’t pretend to be Gandhi. Your perspective might be different if you had invested as much time and energy into explaining the WP as I have, to still hear the same questions again and again after six years. Or (as has happened often in the past) to see other people answer such questions with responses like, “I don’t know for sure, but I seem to recall Mike said…” and proceed to give a response totally different from what I’ve written about the WP. The information is there, and if one isn’t willing to look for it, then don’t follow the plan. But I do agree with you, it would have been better had I not responded at all. Have a nice day.

[tomhz]

I happen to know that Gerhard is not following the WP. He is just doing a 4x2K session once a week (with me, BTW) as part of a just another training plan.
He can't reach the target pace as adviced by others for this kind of session and wonders how he should approach that. No more no less.

Gerhard,

I would opt for option 3).
See you later. I'll be off on holidays now and will join our weekly 4x2K 3 weeks from now.

Tom

[johnlvs2run]

Your strength is your speed, your weakness is endurance.

Option #4 first, and then option #3.

I'd also focus on a much better warmup, and at least 5' easy cooldown each session. What warm up are you doing now?

[badocter]

Another vote for option #3. Each session, use the average pace of the previous session as the target for the first 3 reps and then push the last rep harder. That way you only are in uncharted territory for the last rep.

Even if the pace is a little slower, it is still a solid workout per #4.

[Gerhard]

Questions like that (which I have answered explicitly) are EXACTLY why I wrote this only yesterday:

For anyone new to the Wolverine Plan (or anyone not so new who should have paid more attention the first time), understand the WP was not written for the general public. Don’t expect every aspect to be clearly explained. The best source of supplementary information can be found here:

http://c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4190&start=0

Ignore all the extraneous crap by spammers and trolls. There is plenty of detailed info about the WP, and to this day I still get questions that are clearly answered in these posts. If it seems like too much trouble to do all the reading, then don’t waste your time. You won’t have what it takes to actually follow the plan. But if you do decide to read it, it may change the way you think about training.

The information is there. Just find it.

Mike,

with all due respect: even if 'the' information is in there, it is only one opinion (be it yours and therefore a well educated one). Other people may have other opinions and even though you may not consider them worthy of your time, I do. I believe Pete Marston prefers to decrease the interval length (1800 meter or so) to be able to keep 5K PB pace. That's another opinion. And there may be more.

I have read the entire WP document, but I made no effort to learn it by heart. I don't follow the WP. Like Tom said: I just want to get my 4x2K down to target pace and I'm interested in other peoples advice. The WP happens to mention a target pace, that's the only reason for even mentioning the WP. Paul and others mention slightly deviating target paces. I'd be happy getting down (consistently) to either one of them.

[johnlvs2run]

Even if the pace is a little slower, it is still a solid workout per #4.

A good workout is a higher priority for me, than achieving a certain series of times. Though I invariably have time goals in mind too, they don't need to be always "faster" than before. In fact I've often done practice sessions more slowly, which resulted in faster times for events.

A good workout to me means giving a reasonable effort focusing on other factors than the pace, though keeping the pace in mind too. This leaves room for improvement, and stimulates a more optimum recovery.

I like looking forward to my sessions on the erg, having fun with them and enjoying.

[Nosmo]

Option number 4, makes the most sense.
However 3 seconds slower then your 5K time doesn't really sound right to me. Makes me wonder if your not recovering enough between workouts or between intervals.

[johnlvs2run]

I've not done 4x 2k before, that I recall, though I've done 5x 2k with 4 minutes rests a few times.

I'd consider this to be a 10k to half marathon session.

My 5k Pb is at 2k + 2.7, so it would be rather difficult to do 4x 2k at this pace.
Maybe 5k +3s is fast enough, but this really depends on what feels right and provides the most benefit.