What happened to Karpinnen's World Record

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » May 26th, 2006, 1:08 am

I was just browsing and found that Karpinnen's 5:52 is no longer considered the M40H WR by C2, but now its: 40-49 HWT Jens Doberschütz Germany 5:58.4 I aslo see that the UK site has not make the change( http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ecords.asp )

Another issue is: all the other WR times and distances(M40H) are hold by Dwayne Adams(dispite all the controversy), but there is also no concistancy because
DA's 6000m time for last season(19:16.2)( http://www.concept2.com/sranking03/get_wrankings.asp ) is not cosidered but his 19:27.3 is still in there( http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ds_all.asp )

I suggest thet all DA's WR times and distances are put on hold till he has raced and pull a respectable time at a C2 puplic event

german answer · Post by **german answer** » May 26th, 2006, 4:27 am

Unbelievable but it seems true. Karpinnen´s time was a time he erged in younger times. The race is on Andreas

.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » May 26th, 2006, 9:54 am

How long has C2 had that world records based on the rankings up online? I thought part of the problem with determining the world record for any non2k distance is that there are very few or no races at those distances. In the past for example, I remember threads about sprint races that are held in Australia or NZ, and people disputing whether those results could really be WRs given the lack of other competitions.

In any case, I think it would really help if C2 would write out clearly the standards for how these "official" world record results are determined both for the 2k (since there was some questioning of the women's WR last year set at a national team trial) and also for these nonofficial distances. An explanation of how C2 selected/qualified existing records would also be helpful, but I don't see how they can validly purge those old records if they were qualified based on the standards that existed at that time.

NavigationHazard · Post by **NavigationHazard** » May 26th, 2006, 11:11 am

I think the problem with Karpinnen's time was that he was still in his 30s when he rowed it, but that it was erroneously credited to a 40-year-old.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » May 26th, 2006, 12:17 pm

NavigationHazard wrote:I think the problem with Karpinnen's time was that he was still in his 30s when he rowed it, but that it was erroneously credited to a 40-year-old.

That's strange, 2000m became the standard distance in 1996, and Pertti Karppinen's age is clear.
Pertti Karppinen IDENTITY CARD
Born:
17 February 1953
Birthplace:
Vehmaa (Finland)
Nationality:
Finland

Difficult to imagine him under 40 in 1996, no matter how poor my math.

I guess Chad's target just got easier.

Dickie · Post by **Dickie** » May 26th, 2006, 12:48 pm

michaelb wrote:I don't see how they can validly purge those old records if they were qualified based on the standards that existed at that time.

And that is exactly what the world of Olympic Style weightlifting did. They came along one day, subtracted .5 Kg from each record and assigned what they call World Standard to the records, erasing the former record holders name. They then sat back and waited for people to break the World Standard record and be listed as the current record holder.

Fred Dickie

NavigationHazard · Post by **NavigationHazard** » May 26th, 2006, 1:00 pm

Well, I've just tried writing to Karppinen's club in Finland to see what I can find out....

IIRC Arno Calonius had some information on when the 5:52 actually was rowed.....

Yankeerunner · Post by **Yankeerunner** » May 26th, 2006, 1:28 pm

Here is Arno's post:

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Men 40+ Hwt WR?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men 40+ has been a hot topic lately. This is my contribution. The official statistics still show that the WR holder is gold medalist Pertti Karppinen with his time 5.52. This is unfortunately an error
He has rowed the time but long ago in a younger category. There has been attempts trying to correct this error without success. I am sure that the local distributor and Karppinen himself would confirm this. I wonder who the WR holder might be then
_________________
Arno Calonius 60 lwt Finland
300m = 52.0

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » May 26th, 2006, 2:08 pm

Spare a thought for Jens. I think its quite crule to be done out of the recognotion of a world record for so many years(since1999: age 41 at that stage).

Paul, thanks for that link to the olympic athletes.

It sure makes the taget for a WR much more gettable, especially for DA

and Chad

.
Ralfe Eckard , the current Would Champ, is also in with a big change, since he's new to the sport and is still a young 40 year old.
I think that Poul Bysted and Brian Burke also got the capability to get very close to that time.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » May 26th, 2006, 3:01 pm

The 2k has always been based on a race result. But I didn't think C2 recognized "world records" in other distances. C2 Uk does recognize British records in other distances.

It appears to me that at some point in 2005 or so, C2 changed how that information is displayed to add that these are "world records", when before they may have been titled "all time ranking records". My impression in discussions in the past was that people didn't general regard those ranking records for the non2k events to really have the force and weight of being real "world records".

Example of display circa 2004:
http://www.concept2.com/almanac/get_al_records.asp

Current display (likely added when C2 redid their website?):
http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ds_all.asp

example from the old forum disputing the validity of world records for the 6k:
http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2101

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » May 26th, 2006, 3:04 pm

Yankeerunner wrote:Here is Arno's post:

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Men 40+ Hwt WR?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men 40+ has been a hot topic lately. This is my contribution. The official statistics still show that the WR holder is gold medalist Pertti Karppinen with his time 5.52. This is unfortunately an error
He has rowed the time but long ago in a younger category. There has been attempts trying to correct this error without success. I am sure that the local distributor and Karppinen himself would confirm this. I wonder who the WR holder might be then
_________________
Arno Calonius 60 lwt Finland
300m = 52.0

This is all well and good, the struggle I'm having with it is that if PK indeed rowed a 2k in 5:52, which this appears to state, AND he was not 40 at the time, which would have to be prior to Feb 17, 1993;

Why would he have done that?
(I know why my college test was 4 miles on the Model A when 5 miles was the RACE Standard.) Did Finland do something similar?

Was it part of a 2500M test piece (the RACE STANDARD distance until Feb 1996)? Which would be very impressive in it's own respect, very impressive!

calonius · Post by **calonius** » May 27th, 2006, 1:17 am

I wrote my thread on April 18th after I heard from the Finnish C2 distributor that Karppinen's time 5:52 was erged before he turned 40. Karppinen himself has hardly considered himself a world record holder so removing his time from the WR list is by no means a frustrating procedure for him. As I see it this is just a misunderstanding between Concept2 and the Finnish distributor Finnrowing. I have no evidence or information about it but I am convinced that C2 did not remove Karppinen's time after my post on April 18th without contacting the Finnish distributor and thus they should have more detailed information about this.

Throughout the years the majority of people tend to spell the name of KP wrong. It should read Karppinen not Karpinnen

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » May 27th, 2006, 10:12 am

calonius wrote:I wrote my thread on April 18th after I heard from the Finnish C2 distributor that Karppinen's time 5:52 was erged before he turned 40. Karppinen himself has hardly considered himself a world record holder so removing his time from the WR list is by no means a frustrating procedure for him. As I see it this is just a misunderstanding between Concept2 and the Finnish distributor Finnrowing. I have no evidence or information about it but I am convinced that C2 did not remove Karppinen's time after my post on April 18th without contacting the Finnish distributor and thus they should have more detailed information about this.

Throughout the years the majority of people tend to spell the name of KP wrong. It should read Karppinen not Karpinnen

Thanks Arno, I still would like to know how/why "Karppinen's time 5:52 was erged before he turned 40", which unless we have his birth year (1953) wrong, would make the official race distance 2500m until he was at least 42.

Or was it not done at all? Was it fabricated?

If his birthdate is correct and the official race distance was 2k and the time was 5:52, he had to be in his 40's.

I'd really like to know the facts surounding this revelation, because as I see it now, the facts simply don't add up, therefore some of the "facts" must be incorrect.

Obviously his credentials as an oarsman are not in question and something as silly as an "Indoor Rowing WR" could hardly compare to the rest of his accomplishments. This isn't about a personal issue for him, it's about the truth. Perhaps you can simply ask him what happened to get that time attributed as it was, and why it was not fixed sooner (the WR lists are hardly a secret).

calonius · Post by **calonius** » May 27th, 2006, 2:18 pm

Hi Paul,

Karppinen was definitely born in 1953. On April 18th I got an email from the managing director of the Finnish C2 distributor as follows: "Karppinen has accomplished the time 5:52 but it was before he turned 40. We have tried to correct the WR status without success".

I will contact Finnrowing early next week asking for more details. I will inform accordingly.

Cheers,
Arno

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » May 27th, 2006, 9:09 pm

calonius wrote:Hi Paul,

Karppinen was definitely born in 1953. On April 18th I got an email from the managing director of the Finnish C2 distributor as follows: "Karppinen has accomplished the time 5:52 but it was before he turned 40. We have tried to correct the WR status without success".

I will contact Finnrowing early next week asking for more details. I will inform accordingly.

Cheers,
Arno

Thanks Arno!

The facts: (Just to compile them in a single place.)
Pertii Karppinnen:
Born 4/18/1953
Turned 40: 18 April 1993
Has done a 2k in 5:52

WIRC:
WIRC Standard Race distance 1986 to 1995 was 2500M (PM1).
The PM2 was introduced in 1995.
First WIRC using PM2 in 1996, official Race distance 2000m.

If the 2000m was done prior to PK turning 40 it would have to have been done on a PM(1), and that would have given significant advantage at a 1:28 avg pace over the PM2, so of course the time should not count as a WR for at least two reasons. The remaining question is still "Why would there have been any sort of official timing of a 2000m Race or National Team Trial that would have been recorded as a WR for a distance that was not recognized as being "the standard".

I could speculate that there was a national Team Trial of 2000m, because that would have been under the coaches control and of course the time would have been monitored and recorded, though by the time that 2000m became the official distance for Indoor Racing it would have had to have been 2+ years in the past, which still makes one wonder why it would have been attributed mistakenly.

I did see a result listing Karpinnen as having raced a 1k in the last couple years and he was quite fast, do you have any idea if he intends to emerge at an Indoor Competition such as the EIRC or WIRC again? It would surely give the M50-55 category a nice "hard target", not that they don't have one in the mean time.